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Obama, or if not, McCain...thoughts?

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  • Obama, or if not, McCain...thoughts?

    I am not sure if this properly belongs in "Debates," so I won't be offended if the Forum monitor moves it. I just guessed...since it relates to politics.

    As a lot of you may know, I am a political conservative. I generally vote Republican, even if simply because there is no other, more (or actual) conservative option. Of course, barring anything unforeseen now, I'll vote for McCain in the national election in November.

    So I guess folks might wonder if I am "rooting" for one candidate or another to win the Dem primary race (some conservatives are hoping that one particular person will win, on the belief that such person will be easier for McCain to defeat). I don't really subscribe to that school of thought. I am not sitting around praying that Clinton will win, or that Obama will win, because I think s/he'd be a more likely target to defeat. I think both have strengths and weaknesses and that both will be tough competition, each in his/her own way.

    Lately, I have noticed a number of polls which indicate that some (certainly not a majority, or anything, but a statistically noticeable number) current Obama supporters plan to vote for McCain if Clinton gets the Dem nomination. I have struggled to "get" that--Obama and McCain are so far removed from one another on the political spectrum, I couldn't see how someone who subscribed to Obama's politics could flip and support McCain. I just assumed that people who would do this don't understand what EITHER candidate stands for. But, I have reconsidered that assessment in the past couple of weeks. First, it is intellectually dismissive. Second, it blinds me to the considerations of voters who vote based on something other than policy-wonkish loyalties--not everyone votes through a policy consistent pair of spectacles (and there's certainly no requirement that one must!) because there are other factors that just mean more to them when choosing a candidate.

    So, does anyone have any thoughts on this--why some Dems have indicated that there second choice to Obama would be McCain, not Clinton? I would really like to understand this, because I think that it would help me to understand the broader appeal of McCain in the first place. I think I may approach voting too cerebrally, and miss the emotional, personal connection people can feel in choosing a candidate. For example, on a personal level, I am voting for McCain because he is the more conservative option--not necessarily because I find something else (something "not defined") about him to be appealing. But I get the feeling that, if you flip from Obama to McCain, you must see a shared, common trait between them that makes you think that, whatever his politics, he would be a better choice than Clinton. What is it? That both are sort of "outsiders" in a sense? That both, each in his own way, breathes a bit of fresh air, through his respective style?

  • #2
    Re: Obama, or if not, McCain...thoughts?

    But I get the feeling that, if you flip from Obama to McCain, you must see a shared, common trait between them that makes you think that, whatever his politics, he would be a better choice than Clinton. What is it? That both are sort of "outsiders" in a sense? That both, each in his own way, breathes a bit of fresh air, through his respective style?
    Just my two cents, I think it has more to do with how those voters feel about Clinton than how they feel about Obama and McCain. Perhaps they don't like/trust/etc her but still feel compelled to vote. GWB is proof that the person and personality is more important than the politics (again, just my opinion and now this can probably stay in the debate section ).

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    • #3
      Re: Obama, or if not, McCain...thoughts?

      I agree with Nellie, and will add that most people who would flip between the two would consider themselves to be Independents, not Democrats.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Obama, or if not, McCain...thoughts?

        Thanks, guys. Interesting. I didn't realize that this might be more about Clinton than McCain.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Obama, or if not, McCain...thoughts?

          My own DH is a good example of this. I'd say he's socially liberal but fiscally conservative ... generally votes independent. He likes McCain, but could also see himself voting for Obama (and definitely would NOT vote for Hillary ... again, it's a personality thing with her).
          ~Jane

          -Wife of urology attending.
          -SAHM to three great kiddos (2 boys, 1 girl!)

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Obama, or if not, McCain...thoughts?

            Originally posted by migirl
            My own DH is a good example of this. I'd say he's socially liberal but fiscally conservative ... generally votes independent. He likes McCain, but could also see himself voting for Obama (and definitely would NOT vote for Hillary ... again, it's a personality thing with her).

            I agree. It has much more to do with Hillary than McCain.

            If Obama wins and it's Obama vs. McCain DH will have a tough time voting. He feels very strongly about ending the war but Obama's tax plan makes him go . If Hillary wins I would bet my life savings he will vote for McCain.

            It's definitely a personality thing and DH thinks that the "shots" she has okayed against Obama are yet another example of the same old win at all costs politics.

            I agree with DH on the issues although the perceived "high taxes" of the Dems bother me a lot less than DH -- but I could vote for Hillary. I could not vote for McCain.

            I wonder how much of this issue is that she's a Clinton and how much of this issue is she's a woman.
            Flynn

            Wife to post training CT surgeon; mother of three kids ages 17, 15, and 11.

            “It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.” —Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets " Albus Dumbledore

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Obama, or if not, McCain...thoughts?

              Originally posted by Flynn
              I wonder how much of this issue is that she's a Clinton and how much of this issue is she's a woman.
              I don't think it's either (for the bulk of people). I think it's that she's Hillary Clinton. People tend to either love her or hate her, and the people that hate her REALLY hate her. I've been saying for months that this is one of the primary things that swayed me to the Obama camp - she is too devisive. If she is the nominee, she will:

              1. Cause independents who would otherwise have voted democrat to go to McCain.
              2. Cause republicans who otherwise would have stayed home b/c they aren't in love with McCain to come out simply to vote AGAINST Clinton.

              I've always liked her - during the Clinton years, during her time in the senate. I think she's tough and incredibly smart. But I do not like what the campaign has done to her. I'm disappointed to see her campaign turning to Rove-ian tactics.

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              • #8
                Re: Obama, or if not, McCain...thoughts?

                I'm a republican/conservative, and I like Hillary. I would not vote for her, but I don't hate her or anything. I don't really get the anti-Hillary sentiment. It's a bit much. I also like GWB-- I like his personality. I think he's very funny. (I think the press thinks he's funny too- of course they hate him, but personally he's supposed to be likeable.) I don't like Bill Clinton. I couldn't stomach the lying in the camera thing-- I know, "it's just sex" and all that. I just don't like him. I don't like McCain. He *bugs* me intensely. I don't think he's likeable.

                All this aside, personality is not the main thing to me. I had to laugh at the debate between Obama/Clinton (the PA one) where they were fighting about whose plan to raise taxes was better than the other's. Honestly, people. It all sux. Just b/c McCain said he's keep the "Bush Tax Cuts" permanent, I'd vote for him. Even tho' I don't like his personality.
                Peggy

                Aloha from paradise! And the other side of training!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Obama, or if not, McCain...thoughts?

                  Originally posted by Jane
                  Originally posted by Flynn
                  I wonder how much of this issue is that she's a Clinton and how much of this issue is she's a woman.
                  I don't think it's either (for the bulk of people). I think it's that she's Hillary Clinton. People tend to either love her or hate her, and the people that hate her REALLY hate her. I've been saying for months that this is one of the primary things that swayed me to the Obama camp - she is too devisive. If she is the nominee, she will:

                  1. Cause independents who would otherwise have voted democrat to go to McCain.
                  2. Cause republicans who otherwise would have stayed home b/c they aren't in love with McCain to come out simply to vote AGAINST Clinton.

                  I've always liked her - during the Clinton years, during her time in the senate. I think she's tough and incredibly smart. But I do not like what the campaign has done to her. I'm disappointed to see her campaign turning to Rove-ian tactics.
                  I agree Jane. I think you're right on here with your entire post. I really connected with what you said in red. Nice job.
                  Flynn

                  Wife to post training CT surgeon; mother of three kids ages 17, 15, and 11.

                  “It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.” —Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets " Albus Dumbledore

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Obama, or if not, McCain...thoughts?

                    Originally posted by GrayMatterWife
                    Thanks, guys. Interesting. I didn't realize that this might be more about Clinton than McCain.
                    Really? Come on...there is so much Hillary hate out there that goes beyond not like her policies or politics....You really didn't think it had to do with that?

                    And for the record....I think the media has created the impression that she is engaging in rovian tactics...etc etc etc. When you directly compare comments made by Obama and Clinton...there is little difference in the veracity of the statements. Even comparisons of previous primary seasons and campaigns were no different.

                    The bottom line is that there are people who don't like Hillary Clinton....they hated Bill, they hate her more...they hate her because she is a woman, because she was married to him, because she didn't leave him, because she isn't soft enough, she isn't 'hard' enough, she's a bitch, she's too sensitive because she cried. Blah, blah, blah.

                    The media has created the issues in this campaign. That. is the only truth.

                    What has there been? Bookbaggate...did Hillary 'really' have a bookbag in the 60's? whatever. Fingergate. Did Obama 'really' give her the finger when he was scratching his face.

                    There have been several things that were said about Clinton by the medida for days...like the issue of the woman who died after being denied treatment at a hospital...where it eventually came out that her facts were accurate. I didn't hear a big apology by the media or a lot of statements to make up for it.

                    My favorite blooper of late were the pictures on MLK day that showed Clinton smiling and the suggestions that she was only showing up for a photo op...that her attitude wasn't somber enough. Oh, the discussions of the Clinton's racism. Oooops...wait...there are other pictures showing her somber? What? When you zoom out from the smiling pictures you realize she was talking to someone and smiling at them. oh..ok...new story...let's move on quietyly and hope the american public remembers that they should hate Hillary the ballbuster and lets find something else.

                    <heavy, heavy sarcasm>

                    Obama has had a free pass until fairly recently, but now....he is taking his knocks too. And....even THESE are being blamed on Clinton. It's ridiculous.

                    I'm very close to checking the box on the republican ticket myself.....
                    ~Mom of 5, married to an ID doc
                    ~A Rolling Stone Gathers No Moss

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Obama, or if not, McCain...thoughts?

                      I think both McCain and Obama represent the "rebel" position in politics. I think people that would support either are voting against the status quo. Clinton, good or bad, is a politics-as-usual player simply because she has been around the Washington scene forever. At least while McCain has been there, he has ruffled feathers and played against the rules enough to get some Republicans to hate him. Honestly, the fact that many strong party players *don't* like McCain makes him more electable in this election for the independents.

                      I think the voters in this country want a change. Not the same old "change" the politicians have been harping on for years and years...but a real, honest to goodness change. I'm so done with what we've been doing for the past 20 years. I'd vote for anyone I thought would shake things up and make a real difference. Hillary....although smart and capable.... would be a journey back to the Clinton years. I'm sorry that she is the first viable female candidate. I'd like to support her for that but it simply isn't as pressing as moving forward. She's just the wrong person at the wrong time.
                      Angie
                      Gyn-Onc fellowship survivor - 10 years out of the training years; reluctant suburbanite
                      Mom to DS (18) and DD (15) (and many many pets)

                      "Where are we going - and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Obama, or if not, McCain...thoughts?

                        Originally posted by Sheherezade
                        She's just the wrong person at the wrong time.
                        Actually, Angie...I....agree. I do feel now that she isn't the right person for now...maybe 4 years ago would have been her time, but it isn't now...My feelings of affection for her have really fallen. I would never suggest voting for Clinton just because she is a woman....or because I feel she's been treated unfairly by the media....that is the wrong reason to vote for someone.

                        At the same time...the more I hear Obama...the less I like him too. I just...don't like him...I don't believe him...and I don't think he can or will deliver the 'change' that we all crave.

                        And McCain....good grief...it's almost like he has no personality or...oooompf at all.....like he's a cardboard cutout of a person standing up delivering his speeches.

                        I am disappointed by the playing field in general. I am not really supporting any candidate anymore....I didn't watch the last debate, have turned off the news and just....ugh...I'm not interested.

                        Maybe that will change after Clinton is finally out of the primaries and there is an Obama, McCain matchup. Let's hope.
                        ~Mom of 5, married to an ID doc
                        ~A Rolling Stone Gathers No Moss

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Obama, or if not, McCain...thoughts?

                          Honestly, the fact that many strong party players *don't* like McCain makes him more electable in this election for the independents.
                          Yes, Angie hit this on the head. The independent factor is going to be huge in this election.

                          IMHO, the Republican party has gone insane over the last few years causing moderate Republicans like myself to flee the party. We want to come back to the ideals of fiscal conservancy and smaller government, but only if the candidate shows him/herself to be a moderate. Read as: not a hawkish neocon, nor someone who permit the diminishment of our civil rights and freedoms through fearmongering, nor someone who caves to appease the religious right.

                          Althought the Republican party is not in love with McCain, he will attract some indepedents because of he is not a straight party man. (Although he has pandered a bit to prove that he is a "true conservative" to certain groups.

                          Obama also represents a break from politics as normal. An upstart black freshman senator versus a well-oiled, tenured political machine. Although this perception should NOT be enough to sway people over each politician's stand on the issues, Americans love an underdog. Unfortunately, Hillary choose a formidable opponent who repesents the general demand for a new day in politics. . Her timing was bad. I honestly think she could have cleaned up in another election.

                          Kelly
                          In my dreams I run with the Kenyans.

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