Medical School is More Important then YOU! so what...

Hiya Folks,

I keep reading the same stuff over and over and over... My so and so spends so much time in medical school / residency and he/she barely has any time for me...

OK well I hope I can help you all shift your perspective a little and help you recover from this problem.

First of I've been in that same type of thinking for awhile and yes I know that it hurts to be placed as a second priority for these people but lets face it medical school / residency is a commitment that they have made and its a suicidal commitment that they have to go through. There are many times when I wanted to do something for the weekend but couldn't since my wife had to study or do other stuff.

So I think its real important for everyone to realize that whether you like it or not you too are part of the medical school / residency program and that in order to make their life a bit easier it is important for us to become a shadow and let them do what they have to do. In essence become the slave of the system and let them go on with what they have to; stop competing for their time and attention...

I know it sounds demeaning to make yourself be a second priority but this is what I did when my wife got into medical school. She told me how rough it was gonna be on her and on both of us and I basically shifted my thinking into being someone who is always there to love and support her but also to being someone who can find other stuff to do when my wife has to do her work. It ain't easy but its something we have to learn to cope with and hopefully spend our time doing other stuff to leave them alone.

My wife is now in her first year Anesthesiology residency and she is slowly winning back her freedom. Its been a long journey that I had to condition myself to understand and be a part of. Whenever she has free time she spends with me and I absolutely love it. Don't get me wrong, each evening we spend talking and doing other stuff but as a piece of advice for those who are still in medical school I would recommend that you learn to be secondary to school for awhile. Trust me I think it works well that way.

Oh and I am not saying that you should stop everything, isolate yourself and not say a single word but merely that you should realize how important it is for your spouse to go through medical school and do everything u can to support them. Use your judgment and you will get far.

HOpe this didn't sound too negative but I wanted to shed another perspective on being married to a doctor.

Filip

[PrincessFiona]

re: relationships...

Well, I don't think that anyone here doubts the importance of our spouse's career choice and most of us here have made some pretty major sacrifices to help our docs get to where they are

I realize that I have been a part of his med school from the beginning, but I refuse to budge from my stance that this marriage and family has to be a priority :!: .....From my perspective as a woman , I need to feel that our relationship is nurtured...it is hard to keep the relationship/marriage/family working successfully and to feel happy without the input/support of my spouse. I have been willing to sacrifice quite a bit over the last 9-10 years...but I think that a relationship also has to be give and take...I want to stay married and I want to continue to feel close to my husband...and time is an important factor. I guess I don't see it as demeaning to put myself second....or in my case.....fifth...I'm still trying to decide if I have to put msyelf behind the dog and cat too At least the cat thinks he is on a higher plane than I am! 8)

Maybe my perspective is different because we had small children during training...it certainly changed things.

I think that we're all doing our best to be supportive, but you must admit that it can be hard when your spouse is on-call a lot. I think here is where we come to really vent our frustrations and support our successes....so that we are best able to support our tired docs You will hear people here talk about how challenging things are sometimes...and that's ok...whatever it takes to keep people moving forward!

Thanks for your perspective...it wasn't negative at all. I look forward to getting to know you better and to hearing your story!

Kris

[PrincessFiona]

an addition

The only thing that I'd add here, is that I think that some of the challenges that people have with the whole 'time' thing is that some point in training, for many people, the doc becomes the sole support and social life....and he/she is absent.

I think that it might be easier for people who have a job outside of the home during training...because you more of a balance...for me, training was a challenge because we had very small children (which is a joy...but is also stressful). We moved several times and had no family around...I didn't have a job opportunity, etc.....so my spouse became my whole support network for awhile until I was able to branch out....I notice this in myself now...I have finally started working just two mornings a week and my outlook on life and my marriage has done a 180 degree turn...I feel so much happier and more alive....

You seem like you've been able to build up a very nice web design business...Definately a benefit of time spent alone Congratulations!!!

Kris

I didn't marry the hospital.

My wife is a doctor and the commitment she made to the hospital is HER commitment, not mine. The commitment she made with the hospital is spelled out on a contract that has an expiration date. The commitment she made to me on our wedding day has the word LIFETIME in it. It doesn't say "someone else owns me until I am too old to work anymore and then you can have me back". If she wants me to be there for her, she needs to be there for me. It's just that simple. If she wants to be considered part of the family, she needs to participate in the family. One good budget crisis and the hospital could drop her like a hot potato whereas I plan to be here for her through thick and thin. Make the job outrank the family? Are you kidding me? What a ridiculous concept!

Doctor, shmoctor, it's just a job like any other. "A doctor's job is more important because people might die." Feh! A school bus driver has more lives in his/her hands each day than any mere doctor.

I understand that doctoring might not always be nine to five, but they absolutely must be fully dedicated and commited to that unpaid support staff that makes their career possible and their life worth living. Commit yourself to your career, to the detriment of your family, and you will die alone (unless you think the hospital administration will be weeping at your graveside). Commiting more to the job than the family only means your priorities are out of whack.

With that being said, I'm sitting here with yet another Saturday blown due to her "commitment" to Family Practice (FP - everyone's family but her own). I've got some work to do (which I had to put off all week because doctor's can't seem to master the wristwatch) and my son is sick with something I've never seen or dealt with before. I'm married to a doctor, but when I need expert medical advice . . . I have to call my Mom. What a world!

Just my two bits!

[PrincessFiona]

bigremo

HI bigremo, and welcome to the boards......You'll have to help the guys get the mrmd section going

What you had to say really resonates with me. I don't discount the importance of my husband's profession, but I agree with you that it is just that...a profession. My dh just finished residency and fellowship about a year ago and our marriage and family have really suffered due to his absence in our lives for so long. The whole focus of most of our marriage has, quite frankly, been his career and he has found it hard to shift gears.

I think that it took his own father passing away to realize how important his family is...and he is trying very hard to correct things. He is now helping me get the children off to school/driving my youngest to preschool sometimes 8O 8O and is investing time/energy in making our relationship work. Before, it was me trying to make things better...and I think that I finally just gave up...now it is him coming to me really wanting to make our family whole again...and that is what is making things really work now...his involvement and commitment to us.....

Commitment to career is one thing...but jobs come and go.....family is forever...

Kris

[DCJenn]

My husband made me promise on our drive to Texas (which took three days so we got a lot of talking done- which was amazing seeing as we'd only been married for 72 hours when we left!) that if I ever felt that he was becoming "A DAWKTOR" with full NY accent- I needed to slap him silly.

Internship year was awful in a lot of ways- but I certainly didn't have the problems that I saw with some of the other couples (my husband refers to them as the co-dependent ones). Maybe because we were in our thirties when we got married, maybe because I'd been married before and he lived with count 'em- three different women over the years, or maybe because my move here coincided with the pinnacle acheivement of my own career. (I am the boss- finally!)

I know that there will be times that his priority is his job, and that's the way it should be- as with all of our spouses and significant others, I'm sure. I know that if I were taking my child to a pediatrician (as opposed to the Vet, where my 'children' actually go) I would want that person to be 100% all about my child.

It sounds horrible, but I know at least one of you agrees with me- I miss the number of call nights he used to have. I LIKE having my own space.
Again, we don't have kids, so that's one less HUGE responsibility that I don't have to deal with. I used to get really frustrated hearing all of the whining from some of the other spouses- I kind of wanted to say "snap out of it- it sucks, move on". On the other side of the coin- the day I nearly threw the kitty litter pan at him- I was more than a little frustrated at the lack of time at home. (surgical spouses have an automatic 'bye' in the whining- you guys can bitch all you want)

I guess my point to this ramble is that there are always two sides to everyone's story. And sometimes how we feel about this lifestyle, our spouses, every one elses spouses, etc. can change in a minute. I don't think that any of us is a martyr because we happened to marry/date/live with a person who has chosen the medical profession. I have many times told my husband that I married him for the uniform and this doctor thing is really unnecessary! (and if any one does think that their significant other is special merely based on their job, think about life without the garbage man and then tell me who contributes to quality of life!!)

Does any of this make sense?

Oh well, I love this place- makes us all think!!

Jenn

Life support system for a doctor

jloreine said: "maybe because my move here coincided with the pinnacle achievement of my own career. (I am the boss- finally!)"
If your husband's career dictated that you would have to quit your career, how would you feel about that? Didn't you work just as hard, or harder, to get where you are today? Is your job and your effort less important because you are not a doctor?

jloreine said: "I LIKE having my own space."
I do too and I worked hard to build a pair of businesses (successful ones too) that would allow me to have more of my own space. When my wife and I got married, we agreed to be a partnership. Here we are in our fifth year of that partnership and she is renegging on her side of the deal. I'm a good Father, so I am there to play with my kids and spend time with them and teach them, but having to deal with them 24/7 is starting to drive me batty. I hold off dinner for as long as I can, but I have to feed the kids before their bedtime rolls around. What am I supposed to tell them when they ask why Mommy isn't here for dinner yet again? That somebody else's family is more important to her than they are? I have had to neglect my businesses (which allow me to earn about three to four times her salary) to make sure my kids are properly attended and parented. They're her kids too and she has a responsibility to them, not to mention that I'm starting to feel a bit taken for granted. You may be perfectly happy to be a doormat/life-support system for a doctor, but I am not. It aint what I signed on for. I need my wife to be my wife, not my teenage daughter. My kids need and deserve a mother.

jloreine said: "I know that if I were taking my child to a pediatrician, I would want that person to be 100% all about my child."

Your statement is a bit, well, offensive. A person does not have to be available 24/7 to be considered good at or dedicated to their chosen profession. When my wife is at work, she is dedicated to her work (her patients) while she is there. You do think that your pediatrician should be allowed to sleep, don't you? Is she also allowed to go on vacation? Is she allowed to have a life outside of caring for your child? Is she a bad pediatrician because she wants these things? Does the fact that she wants to sleep or go on vacation make her less than 100% concerned about your child when she is on the job? I doubt that you realistically expect your pediatrician to be there every single moment of every single day. I know that if my child's life were hanging in the balance, I wouldn't want an exhausted/burned-out doctor (or fireman or policeman or bus driver) doing anything to him.

And what good to the world is a Doctor who is dedicated 100% to your child and 0% dedicated to her own? Her kids will be breaking into your home/car and sending your kids to the hospital on a regular basis, is that really the desired end result?

[DCJenn]

OK-

First- you've taken some of my comments a little bit out of context- which happens with this online thing.

Second- My career is luckily transportable. I am leaving my current position in 8 months. Why? Because the Army tells us where we are going to live. This is the life I signed on for- and I knew it at the time. So, yes, my husband's career not only dictates where I will work, but even if I will work- it would be hard to do what I do if we are sent overseas. My job is just as important as my husband's- (at least I'm pretty sure the people I am responsilbe for and their parents would say so) but did I work as hard to get here? Who can say? My graduate degree was a cakewalk- but was mowing lawns with adults with developmental disabilities for 7 bucks an hour, or cleaning up after bums in parking garages with the same kind of crew or working at a Group Home on Thanksgiving because my staff called in- worth it? Did I pay my dues to get to where I am- most definitely. and you know what? I am on call 24/7. Significantly more than my spouse. The only time I am not on call is if I leave the state.

Finally, you do need your wife to be with you- and you children certainly do to. All I am saying is that me, Jenn, misses having as much time to myself as I did. Maybe I am just a Huge Selfish Bitch. Maybe I just get tired of people. But my needing my space does not negate anyone elses needs or desires. I was just saying that I, Me, Jenn, was a little frustrated at what I saw as people who for whatever reason, weren't prepared for this lifestyle, which as we all know- can be a giant pain in the A** at times.

We are a community here to support each other, and frankly, I'm not quite sure exactly what about my post deserved such a diatribe. really.

Anyway, hope your weekend got better-

Jenn

Out of context? You said, "I know that there will be times that his priority is his job and that's the way it should be- as with all of our spouses and significant others, I'm sure. I know that if I were taking my child to a pediatrician (as opposed to the Vet, where my 'children' actually go) I would want that person to be 100% all about my child."

Now, maybe I am reading this wrong, but this sure sounds like you said that "there will be times that his priority is his job and that's the way it should be." It's the "that's the way it should be" that is the most troublesome. I disagree with you, plain and simple. I don't think "that's the way it should be". During an emergency situation, either side might trump the other (example: your child falls down a deep hole, do you go to work or do you help him get out?). All things being equal, family responsibilities are more important than any job. That's the way it SHOULD be.

The other statement, "if I were taking my child to a pediatrician I would want that person to be 100% all about my child" still seems offensive to me, sorry. It seems to imply that if someone isn't available to provide service 24/7 that they aren't dedicated to their job or that they aren't doing a good job. This is exactly the misguided mindset that my wife labors under and it is causing her to work too many hours for no real gain or purpose. You struck very close to home with your comment, a comment I believe to be misguided. If this wasn't your intention, I apologize for snapping at you.

This is supposed to be a support forum. Oh, your hubby is away from the family all the time? "Suck it up, you whiner" is not support. Oh, your kids don't remember what their Mom looks like? "Quit your bitching" is not support. The topic of this thread is "Medical School is More Important than YOU! so what...". I'm telling you "so what". I'm telling you that it's wrong, misguided, and incorrect. Spouses don't have to be a doormat for their doctor and doctors don't have to treat their families as dispensible.

Most doctors, and many of their spouses, are under the impression that the physician career is more important than all the people who make it possible. It isn't. Many people think doctors are highly intelligent, but most doctors are incapable of doing anything but being a doctor. Try to survive in the world without being able to handle cooking, cleaning, shopping, laundry, car repair, home repair, yard maintenance, childcare, finances, legal issues, social situtation, and all the rest, you won't last long. The hospital capitalizes on the arrogance of the intelligent physician, why else would they imply that the doctor be there all the time and then not provide decent round-the-clock food service or proper lodging and rest for them? Doctors have one of the highest divorce rates in the country. Imagine trading in your family, your support system, and half your income for a job that might not exist next year...it doesn't sound all that smart to me.

"Medical School is More Important then YOU! so what..."
Try to make it through medical school without the help of any others, I dare you (this includes money and housing provided by your parents, the government, the hospital, and anyone who isn't you). Any doctor's out there do it without any outside help whatsoever?

Medical school may be hard, so is good parenting, so is dealing with your family responsibilities, and so is honoring your promises. Doctors eventually retire, Daddys don't.

I'm probably gonna get flamed, so flame away. I have sat here this last week or so and have seen the introduction of a few new members who are in my opinion just plain "whipped" to put it bluntly. Peculiar that they are all males. I believe that our perspectives towards being a medical spouse are just plain different. To the one who said that the support that we offer here is not true support, once again in my opinion, maybe this isn't your cup of tea so to speak. To those who say Medical school and residency and being a Doctor is more important than you, while this may be true for some people but not for all. You should not make generalized statements.

Hey BigRemo... my husband did do the whole Medical school, residency thing all by himself. He sold his Karate business that he built from the ground up and nourished for 10 years to fufill his dreams. He sold his house and moved to a small apartment and spent the rest on his education. We got married before residency and moved to Columbus. We supported ourselves with no help from the hospital, friends or family. We had two children during that residency and did just fine without loans or assistance programs. I'm glad that you can sit in your little shop on High Street and make assumtions about other people's lives. "Commiting more to the job than the family only means your priorities are out of whack." Everyone has their own priorities. Because you think it's wrong doesn't make it so.

"Try to survive in the world without being able to handle cooking, cleaning, shopping, laundry, car repair, home repair, yard maintenance, childcare, finances, legal issues, social situtation, and all the rest, you won't last long." My husband does not have to handle all these by himself but is quite capable of doing so if he had to and work as a physician. I find the remark that most physicians are not good at anything but being a doctor insulting and as a medical spouse I am shocked that you said it.

Jenn, I absolutely want my pediatrician to be 100% about my child at that moment and not about her family pulling her away from her duties. There are times when that happens I'm sure, but I pay to have 100% quality care and if my pediatrician cannot be their to provide it be it her vacation, her needing sleep, etc. there better be someone there in her office that can.

Kris, we need an emoticon that have a stick out you tongue face. I could have used it :!:

Standing back and putting on her flame retardant suit..........
Trisha

Oh and just to add..

"Doctor, shmoctor, it's just a job like any other. "A doctor's job is more important because people might die." Feh! A school bus driver has more lives in his/her hands each day than any mere doctor. "

A bus driver may have those lives in his hands, but could he ever save them??? I think not. DH saves or with the aid of other surgeons several lives each day as he is an EM physician at a level one trauma center. Glad to see that you view that as just a job. If it's just a job then I guess they should get breakes and lunch hours just like a regular job. Next time you are cruising up I71 and get into a major wreck and they have to medflight you to the nearest Level one trauma center, hmmmm, wonder where that could be?, and my DH is working, he'll make sure he takes that "just a job" coffee break before he intubates you or finishes CPR. How's that sound??

[DCJenn]

Wow-

Ok- again, not quire sure why I'm being targeted here- but- I still stand by what I said- I expect my husband to be 100% about his patients. When he's with them. (Didn't think I needed to add the qualifier but apparently I did) Of course I miss him, and want to spend time with him.

I'm sorry that you disagree with me about the "that's the way it should be" I still stand by that statement as well, for the reason above. I'm 100% about my guys when I'm at work- and when I get paged at home, or at a party, or at the beach- when that pager goes off, I have to turn off whatever is happening around me. I have an implicit contract with these people (not to mention an actual contract with the State of Texas) that they will be cared for, fed, housed, have competent staff, and approproate medications. Period. If something goes wrong, I have to fix it. Just as you would if your child was ill, or your wife broke her leg, or you had a crisis at work. Which one take priority? I can't make that decision for you- but for me- I would obviously care for my family first. That said, at least 18 of the 36 people that I am responsible for don't have families. If one of them were to be sick or in the hospital, my staff and I are it. And you know, there have been a lot of times where my staff have left sick kids or family gatherings, etc. to do what we needed to do for the people that we support. We do it because we love what we do. Everyone's job is different and everyone has to make peace with their own priorities.

As for the "suck it up" comment- I apologized in advance. So, suck it up.

And you know, I think it's great that you're able to do what you're doing for your family. And I'm sorry that your wife isn't home as much as you would like, as she should be, as your children need her to be.

Jenn

Hey Trisha, what did you mean when you said, "I have sat here this last week or so and have seen the introduction of a few new members who are in my opinion just plain "whipped" to put it bluntly. Peculiar that they are all males"? Whipped to me means that you subordinate yourself unconditionally, even to your own personal detriment. Though I think some men who have medical spouses let the wife's career take precedence over everything (even, perhaps, their marriage), I think the majority of medical spouses, both men and women, are far from whipped. What about some of the "new members" makes you think they are whipped? I wouldn't necessarily classify personal or familial sacrifice in the same group as whippage. Please clarify!

[mommax3]

Maybe we could get a discount for buying flame retardant suits in bulk......

BigRemo, I think you are taking out your frustration about your wife's schedule on others here and I suggest you talk to her -- it will be a lot more productive. This forum is very supportive, but it is healthy and refreshing to hear others' points of view. You can disagree without attacking them.

I, too, want my pediatrician to be all about my kids when I take them in. That does not mean I expect them to be on call for me 24/7, but it does mean that when I am in the exam room with my kids, I would rather that my doctor is focused on them and not on something going on at home. I want(ed) the same from my OB, so I do understand when my husband has patients or is on call that on some level he is not fully mine during those times -- except if an emergency happens at home.

I agree that family has to be the first priority, but something that has to happen very early in residency is that the spouse has to understand that the hours spent at work will outweigh the hours spent (awake ) at home, and if that is what you use to determine priorities, the spouse/family will lose every time. What I have decided to focus on instead is if he can leave work behind when he is off. For the most part, he can, although he NEVER takes his pager off unless we leave the state, and logs into Labor and Delivery frequently (from home) to see what's going on even when he isn't on call.

I don't look at it like he would prefer to take care of other women and their babies rather than be home with us.....I chooseto look at it (and speak this way to my kids, too) as a privilege that he "gets" to take care of others. This is his dream, and we have supported him while he achieved it. Yes, I have dreams -- one of them was to be a mother, and I obviously couldn't do that alone, and as a child of a single parent, even on my worst days, being a medical spouse isn't as bad -- I always know he is coming home at some point. Single parents don't have that. There are other things I want to do, too, and there is time left in my life to do them. I don't look at it as he had his turn first, now I want mine -- we are just trying to get through keeping a marriage going and raising kids while dealing with this career, as are many others here, and I find a LOT of support from the other spouses (not just female) here.

I don't recall reading "suck it up, you whiner" or "quit your bitching" anywhere on this forum. The prevailing attitude here is not that the physician career is more important than all the people who make it possible -- BUT -- it certainly presents some unique challenges and we all make it work for our families in different ways. Read more and you will see that your complaints about doctors not seeing their kids, etc., are not unusual, and you will find support, too.

There is a point, though, where you have to realize that this is the reality of the career that your spouse has, and you either choose to find a way to deal with it and keep going, or you become angry and bitter waiting for a lifestyle that might not ever happen. Around here you will find many of us who are working through issues in order to keep going, helped by others' experiences. And you will read that some of us have made some surprising discoveries, like one I made -- after being an at-home-parent to one toddler, then to a preschooler and a baby during a residency in which my husband often worked 125 hour weeks, if he wasn't completely gone on a rotation at a hospital 2 1/2 hours away, I LONGED for a time when he would be home most nights. Now I have that, and I have found that I miss occasional evenings alone, after the kids are in bed. I got used to it during those four years and it was quite a surprise when I found myself remembering some of those times fondly. I don't want to go back to how it was, but it is funny how you can come to enjoy what you start out hating.

I am just rambling now -- but I can tell you are frustrated and I hope you will stick around and find some support here -- that is what we are all about.

Sally

[PrincessFiona]

ugh



I don't have a comment that I'm really willing to throw out here, accept to say that we are all doing the best that we can to cope with our lives as wives/husbands/medical spouses/parents/....as people.

I don't think that it serves any purpose to start picking on each other for our differences.... we all come from different backgrounds (emotional, educational) and so we see the world differently. What's great about that is that it gives us all the opportunity to look at life through someone else's eyes...and open our own selves to new perspectives.

I have a great deal of respect for all of our members..male and female...who are doing the best that they can to adapt to life as parents and medical spouses. I don't agree with everyone's perspective all of the time...but I think about what people's experiences are and wonder how I can benefit from them.

I don't think that Jenn meant anything offensive bigremo. I've known her for a couple of years now 8) and I honestly think that she agrees with you for the most part. I do too. I also feel a great deal of frustration with the thinking "Medical School is More Important than YOU! so what", but there ARE some spouses who believe that. I'm not one of them. I believe that it is important for my marriage that my husband have time to nurture the relationship. It's important for our children that he be home to play/interact with them when he can. This was completely missing during residency and honestly....we almost didn't make it as a couple. A family needs nurturing...plain and simple. Medicine is an important career, but so is nursing, teaching, science,.....Can doctor's save lives...yes...but if they want to be married and have a family, they have to put their energy into that too. After residency and fellowship (where my husband worked 7 days a WEEK for 2 solid years), our children had no relationship with him...except that they thought that he was very grouchy and tired. When we started 'real life', they were shocked if he was home. They'd tell me adamently that 'poppy is working'...and I'd have to physically show them that he was in the house.

Can someone be a good physician...be completely focused on their profession, when their home life stinks?...when their children don't know that they are home and their wife feels lonely and neglected? I don't think so. Physicians are people who need love and warmth.....and I'll tell you that training just sucks the life out of these physicians.....

I was a very, very unhappy person during fellowship because my husband wasn't available to help me with the parenting or just be there as my friend. His focus was the job...he felt at that time that in order to be a 'good' physician that he had to give 150% at the hospital...and that it was my job to fill him back up....

Now his perspective has completely changed. AFter his father died this past year he did some real thinking. He doesn't go into work before 9.30 am ever, he watches the kids at least once a week for me so that I can go and have coffee by myself (or with someone else if I'm lucky ), he spends time talking with me about my day, my hopes for my own life....gosh...he even helps me get the kids to bed now....which is just a miracle! I don't know if our marriage would have survived much longer if the focus had just been on him being 150% physician. He has a great relationship with his colleagues and is well-liked by his patients....and when he comes home now, it's all about family...and that is how it HAS to be....

I did respond to the initial thread though, but I tried to make my case without attacking this person. To me, it feels like some attacking is going on now of other people. Perhaps there are other ways to discuss this and talk about our opinions than by picking each other apart. At the end of the day, you and Jenn agree with each other in many areas.

I also don't think the guys are 'whipped' . I have a great deal of respect for those of you who have put your career second to support your spouse and especially for those who are raising children...even homeschooling.

Unfortunately, the medical training system in this country does not support family life. I'm sorry...I"ve experienced medical training in Europe and it isn't as malignant....it doesn't have to be this way. BUT....let's remember that it is the system that stinks here folks, not each other. We're all doing the best that we can.

Group Hug?

Kris