Okay, I need your thoughts. **May be controversial

Okay, I have warned you. This may be considered controversial...who knows?!?!



What I am about to tell you has tugged at my heart for quite awhile. We were talking about children dying and I thought about ages of children: prenatal death, infant loss, etc. I love children and felt called to teach them. I pray for children I don't even know personally. I feel the pain of parents who have lost their child although I have not experienced a loss like this.



My problem is mourning death of miscarriages. I have noticed that the Web is filled with Memorials of parents who have lost a child. I pray for these parents as I love is must be tough to bring a child into this world, nuture him/her, and then lose their child to death, illness or tragedy. The Memorials I can't relate to are Miscarriage Memorials. I in no way mean this to offensive, but why are parents mourning a child that has been miscarried. Don't get me wrong, I would be so upset if I had a miscarriage (very), but I would grieve that I wasn't able to reproduce rather than the child who is not completely formed for various reasons. I firmly believe God is in control and miscarriages happen because something is just not right.



I guess my question is: Why do people put up memorials for miscarriages?



Please don't think of me as insensitive for asking this question. I truly want to have a better understanding of why parents feel they need to put a memorial for a child they have not seen. To me, I think it is unhealthy. It seems like the parent(s) are dwelling on a sad circumstance, instead of moving on to a brighter place. Okay, have I dug myself in a whole this time?



Again, I really want some insight of this topic. I want to understand others and there tough situations. That's all for now.



Smiles,

Christy

I think that people mourn miscarriages like they mourn the loss of a child that has lived for a while is because...they are mourning the loss of a baby...and what could have been. Whether or not God was in control isn't really the issue, the loss is...(at least in my eyes)...I mean...isn't God in control when a child dies of cancer because something isn't right with them genetically?

Should a parent not mourn because it was God's will? Which I also don't believe. I mean, how can it possibly be in God's greater plan to have a child die.



I have never had a miscarriage. But in my pregnancies I found myself from the very beginning feeling attached to the baby. (Which is why I have no tolerance for abortion! oops, don't want to be controversial here.) I found myself buying clothes or a gift for the baby after each doctors appointment. There is a certain amount of dreaming and hoping that goes along with it and I think that if I had miscarried at any point I would have felt devastated. I would have felt that my baby had died...because miscarriage is the death of the baby for what ever reason. Also, not every miscarriage is due to the baby having something wrong with it. I have a couple of friends who miscarried after the third month more than once...it turned out that they had fibroid tumors in their Uterus and that this is what caused the miscarriage...hence the loss of a perfectly viable baby with fingers and toes...and a little heart. To me, it would seem perfectly natural to set remember how old the baby would have been each year had they made it to term.



Maybe it is just due to individual differences though...how people deal with their emotions, when one views a fetus as being a baby.....



I hope my answer isn't too offensive..... ....I don't mean it to be.



Kris

I have to be really succinct, because I have my two year old on my lap. She's fascinated with the computer...



I almost lost my twin girls at 9 weeks. I had already bought toys, clothes, and a crib. I was devastated, but had mixed feelings because they told me that the twins might not have made it to term anyway (thoughts were my twins were monoamniotic--same sac and very rare--and would stangle in each other's umbilical cords, later proved wrong and diamniotic--normal). The thing is, I would have looked at every set of twins all my life, whether it be in the grocery store or mall, and cried at the sight of them. I would have mourned, repeatedly, the loss of my twins in my life.



I agree completely with what you say, Kristen, and I was going to say those very things when I logged on. I think so many pregnancies end because of some abnormality in the mother. My problem was a placental bleed, a totally random thing as I understand. Luckily, the bleed healed and I have two wonderful normal twin girls. I think back to what I would have felt, and I really do not think it would have been much different than if I had lost them at six months.



A friend of mine had to early-deliver (call it an abortion if you will) an anacyphaplic baby (no brain) at six months after her first ultrasound. There was no point in continuing the pregnancy if the baby would die ten minutes after a term birth (I can not imagine the last three months of a pregnancy like that). They named the baby and had a funeral for her. They love her to this day and think of her as their child, even though they went on to have a healthy baby later. I really think that a child (unborn or not) is a child. That said, I do support abortion as it is up to the woman, and nobody else. So many circumstances demand the need for choice. I KNOW I could never have an abortion myself (unless it was a rape pregnancy, then I might think about it), but I don't think that other people cannot forfeit their choices because of what I feel.



Hope I didn't offend anyone. I appreciate you listening to me!!!





Janet

[Lisa]

This is a good thread. There is not much more that I could add that has not already been said, but I thought you would be interested to hear how a woman that used to work in the same company as me dealt with the loss of her pre-term baby.



I think she delivered at 6 mos. I'm not sure of the reason for her pre-term delivery, but the baby died. Anyway, after the baby was delivered, they dressed the baby, wrapped it in a blanket, held it and took pictures of it with family members. The woman even framed one of the pictures taken of her dead baby and displayed it on her desk. Everyone at work was talking about it because it seemed such and odd thing to do and maybe it was. I mean, most of us, when a loved one dies, does not take pictures of the dead body, frame them and place them on the mantle for display, although in some cultures, I'm sure this may be common. ANYWAY, people at work would say, "Why did she take pictures of her baby and put them on her desk? Why does she want to constantly look at her dead baby and be reminded of that all day?" They thought that she should try to move on instead of dwell on the death of her baby and I thought that at first too, but then I thought, you know, maybe for her, that is the best way to deal with it. Maybe it's comforting to her to be able to see her baby and hold on to that memory for a while. I don't know. I think that different people just have different ways of dealing with grief.

What a sad story, Lisa! Many of us have the opportunity to creat living memories before someone passes away....but this woman was robbed of that chance. How else could she remember what her baby looked like than to take a picture? She had never haad the pleasure of getting to know his every feature...his smell....that picture and the clothes that she wrapped him in are all that she has that ties her to him.....how sad!

First, I wanted to respond. I didn't mean to suggest that every miscarriage is due to having something wrong with the baby. Quite on the contrary, being a mother who has had to use fertility meds to conceive Jonah, I completely understand miscarriages that end due the mother's medical problems. I agree with Kristen 100% in that issue.



I don't mean you shouldn't mourn the loss of a child; however, should a miscarriage be thought of as in the same realms of a child who has been born at 21 weeks or 40 weeks? And should we dedicate a Webpage to a miscarriage? Should we make a baby book out of ultrasound pictures of our miscarried baby? I really don't know. Maybe I would do this, but not having experienced this I know at this point I would not. Both of my sisters' have had miscarriages, but they never talk about it, never wished what could of been, never feel the need to show others their loss. This really is the way we have been raised, I believe.



Kristen, I believe God knows what he doing. And again, I believe He is in control. It would be nice to think all children conceived would be born and no one would ever die whether they are 10 or 100 years old, but like Lisa has mentioned we are born in a sin nature. Sin results in death, separation from God, both physically and spiritually.



Janet, I agree with you 100% in that a baby is a baby. I am pro-life all the way! I could never, ever abort. Although I am an extremist in my beliefs because I would sacrifice myself to have a child. I would have a child even though I may die. Just my beliefs though....



Janet, I am sorry for your losses. I don't wish miscarriages on anyone ever. And I know that was a difficult time for you. Please don't think that I don't believe in mourning a loss of a child. I just don't understand why parents have memorials for miscarriages (if that makes any sense). Well, although I haven't had my own experiences with miscarriage, I have close people to me that have, and I guess people do mourn in different ways.



Christy

Hi Christy,



Please reread my post, as I did not have a miscarriage. I *almost* lost my girls at 9 weeks when I started bleeding, and I ended up healing the bleed and went on to deliver twin girls at 35 weeks.



I just stared into the cold and unfair face of miscarriage for about 5 days, so I went through the fear, grief, and sense of loss that goes with knowing you are about to miscarry. I truely can identify with the preliminary part of a miscarriage. I'll never forget the sight of the blood as I went to the bathroom at work. Sheer terror, especially after waiting 5 years for a baby.



I am intrigued by your honesty about giving your life to have a child. If you were told that you were almost certainly putting your life on the line, would you risk abandoning your existing children? That would be a sacrifice not only you, but they, would have to pay for all their lives.



When I was about 31 weeks along, I developed preeclampsia. I was hospitalized and I proceeded to blow up like a baloon (water weight), gaining 50 lb in less than three weeks. We kept monitoring my blood pressure and when I as about 34 weeks, the medical team wanted to induce me. I held on as best as I could, waiting so that the chances of lung maturity was better, and gave them permission to induce me at 35 weeks (I was so ill at that point I couldn't imagine being pregnant one more day, it felt so unnatural). My girls were healthy, but I was not. I could not have taken the risk to carry them to term with the risk of having my own life cut short. It was a "best chance" type of decision that my husband and I agonized (and I do mean *agaonized*) over.



In a similar situation (but less fortunate), a dear friend of mine had preeclampsia that turned into toxemia and she was going to ceize. They emerg c-sectioned her little boy at 26 weeks (2lb). He lived, but has developmental problems, including CP. He is the apple of their eye and they love him to bits (he just learned how to ride a horse at 10 years old). Would they do it differently if it meant her dying (which was the most certain outcome if she didn't deliver), I doubt it. She explained to me she needed to live for her 5 year old. She has also decided not to have any more for fear of the same thing happening and to keep herself free enough to give all to her two children.



The more these things happen to me or those close to me, the more I realize there are no right answers. People simply go with their hearts and what they feel is best, given the tools and strength they have at the time. Life is such a mystery that way.



Janet

Oops! Sorry, I did misread. Actually I was skimming which isn't always a good idea as you see in my mistake!!! Again, I'm sorry for the bad response in regards to your situation.



Christy

"Kristen, I believe God knows what he doing. And again, I believe He is in control. "



Please, please don't misunderstand this...I am very much in favor of fertility tx...but if one is to follow that logic, wouldn't it be morally objectionable in his eyes to have fertility tx because he is in control and decided that it was no longer part of his plan for a woman to conceive? I don't believe that, by the way....but I think that if we are taking the stance that God is in control of everything and he has this great plan...then if I can no longer conceive a child I should accept that as his will...to pursue anything else would go against that plan...wouldn't it?



"It would be nice to think all children conceived would be born and no one would ever die whether they are 10 or 100 years old, but like Lisa has mentioned we are born in a sin nature. Sin results in death, separation from God, both physically and spiritually." But how do children sin? I don't really understand how we are "born in sin"...I mean, what could be more innocent than a baby? The parents may have sinned in order to conceive it...but a child.....well, I just can't understand it.



I do want to believe....whether anyone here believes that or not...which is why I am actually enjoying this thread...discussing and thinking about it....but I feel so resistant.



In regards to bad things happening to good people, a minister once told me that God does not cause these things to happen and they are not in his plan. He gave humans free will and kind of stands back and lets us all live our lives...and when terrible things happen he is there crying with us....holding us up....and I like that view.



Hope I didn't offend, Christy....it was only a hypothetical following on the thought...and hey, are we going to diet together or what?



Kristen

[Lisa]

I just thought I would touch on this point a little as best I can.



Being "born into sin" doesn't mean that a baby is yet capable of committing sin as soon as it's born. It means that human nature was tainted when Adam and Eve fell and from that point on, human nature became innately sinful. In other words, even though a baby may not be capable of sinning at the moment of birth and for a certain time thereafter (because they're just little blobs that lie there), they are destined to sin at some point. As soon as their brain develops enough to make a choice for themselves, they are bound to make wrong choices, because their nature is sinful. You can see it the moment your little toddler snatches a toy from their sibling and bonks them over the head with it, or the first time they throw a tantrum, or knowingly disobey, or cut loose with a sassy remark, or bite you when they are angry. It's that innate, sinful nature beginning to show. They do it because it's what feels natural to them (human nature being sinful) and that's when we parents must begin to teach them to choose the *right* thing rather than just do what their flesh is telling them to do or what feels good to them at the moment.



I've looked at my children many times when they were infants and still in that *innocent* state thinking of the day that they will disappoint me for the first time (and we all know that they WILL), knowing that there's no way around it because underneath that precious, innocent exterior, there lies that sinful nature that will show itself in only a matter of time.

[Lisa]

I like the way that minister described God's reaction to our sin or when something terrible happens to us. The way he describes it is the way the Bible describes it and Jesus' reaction to human suffering shows the compassion and love that God has for us.

Kristen,



**I registered as bcphares, but it's still me, Christy.**



Okay, you mention God and refer to my belief in God as logic whereas I do not. How is logic defined anyway? Logic seems to me to be a term used for humans to understand God on their terms which can not be done. I believe God in In Control. It's true I cannot logically explain how wonderful God is because I know that you probably could not logically come to understand God unless you have faith and have accepted God through Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Savior.



As far as my fertility issue goes, I believe God gives us medicines to help us maintain our current health or make our health improve. I have polycystic ovaries syndrome (PCOS) and my ovaries do not produce mature follicles on their own, so, in turn, I do not ovulate at all without the use of medicines. I either need to take Birth Control to help me regulate or Clomid to help me conceive.



If I decide not to treat PCOS, my follicles could turn into cysts and become cancerous, although this has not happened to me. Anyway, I sincerely believe God wants us to have more children. I have prayed about this and I could argue that if God didn't want me to have children through fertility meds then why did I conceive with Clomid. We can argue any point through our logic, but reality is that God knows what is going to happen before it does and he will give you "the desires of your heart" (Lisa, what verse is this?), if you ask and if you are in concordance with His will.



God is good. Humans are born in sin. Read Genesis about the beginning. Reread above Adam and Eve and you will have read answers to your questions, I believe. You have to want to know the answers when you read though. Don't read the Bible, scripture, with a heart that is not desiring to know and learn the Truth. Rather open your heart to the things of the Bible, and you will surely see what you are looking for...ANSWERS!!!



Best wishes in your search for answers,

Christy

[Lisa]

Christy, I think it's Psalm 37:4 (I have a really good concordance.--hee hee).

You are very patient with me, Christy.



I am impressed by the strength of your faith and your ability to structure your life based on those beliefs.



Kristen