Art, ( 1

Hi Jennifer,
I'm sorry to see that you feel insulted by my post but if you look at it i was replying/posting to Kristen!I wasn't talking to you or to anyone else in that paragraph...only to kristen.I care VERY much about her and i will tell her anything i want to in order to help her get thru some very hard times!Kristen's honesty,pain and saddnees comes thru in many of her posts and i want so much to make her feel better..to help her get her self esteem back again.My post NEVER said you lied...it had nothing to do with you...only my words to kristen.I would help anyone here if they had problems...if i could.I even made a post to you about your John Hopkins interview(unless that was a different jennifer?)I told you i'd help you with anything i could having to do w/Hopkins or Md.,etc.How i type/talk/post is my style..i say what i think.I won't change how *I am for anyone....this is me.Like you i'm very straight forward/blunt and since your this way also i just would think you'd be understanding and see the points i try to make in posts.But no...i'm not offended by your post...your straight forward and that i can deal with.There is too much in life that really matters to me then to be upset by what people say in posts to me.We are all different here and i care about each person for all different reasons.I find it all refeshing.
Lynn

Often those who choose not to post do so because ...

That is what I said and followed it with what is my own reasoning for not detailing to Lynn, et al my problems with my husband in public as well as the reasoning I have privately heard from others for not doing the same. I had a qualifier there "often" - which really should read "often in my experience" since I am dealing with myself and the people who have said as much to me. I was not attempting to imply ALWAYS or something so all-encompassing. In fact, I did NOT use absolutes BECAUSE they would imply that everyone who posted negative things here was doing so because they tallied the bad rather than the good. Instead I made a point of saying that it applied to SOME - thus the "often". Sorry for the mixup in words!

Thanks for responding to me Kris. I really do appreciate it.

Although it's not the way I'd prefer to deal with things, it's comforting to know I'm not the only person out here in the world who lives with abusiveness and isolation. I don't think there are many who can relate to the personal hell people living in these situations deal with. I've lived with it for so long and suffered and sacrificed so much at the hands of an emotional abuser, I wouldn't wish this life on any other person. If I could only have 10% in my marriage and my relationship with my wife that other people here on these boards have described, I would be a happy person. I'm not even talking about love or a romantic relationship Kris. I'm talking about something even more basic, like respect, consideration, caring, communication. People who have this can take it for granted. I can't blame them for doing so. It's so fundamental you would think a person should not have to live without these things. But, there are those of us who don't have this. I know the first thing in people's mind they always question is, why we choose to live like this? I suppose we're thought to be weak, dependent, etc.; but, there are other factors as well - like a commitment to vows (e.g., in sickness or in health, remember that?), concern for our children and their well-being, an aversion for becoming yet another statistic of divorce, an inner resolve to see this through, patience and hope for a better day, a belief this is only a dip in the long-term scheme of our marital lives. It may not make any sense to continue living this way for a lot of people, but it does make sense for some of us.

I read what you write and how you describe your life with your husband, your children, and your work. Girl, you have taken on a hell of a lot trying to keep it all together and still have a sense of life for yourself. I wonder how much this juggling is wearing on you. I fear for you Kris. I've been there too, trying to raise two young kids by yourself, trying to support the family in a career, trying to make our house as "normal" as possible in the midst of chaos, trying to maintain the semblance of a marriage, and stuffing your own needs. I've been there. I am there, and I've paid a heavy price in my health and the emotional health of my kids.

All I can say to you Kris is that the sooner you can find a settled balance in your life the better. I'm sure you understand very well that some things have to give, be it you pursuing your education for your own sake, day care for the kids, or insisting that your husband get control of his abusiveness towards you and give up some of his own career for your well-being. I don't know of any other way to resolve these situations except by changes in those around you. It will ultimately come to that Kris. It's inevitable if you choose to stick it out.

The other thing is that, you need to do for yourself what you feel is best for you and your children. We're not all the same. It's unrealistic to judge another's actions against your own life, values, and beliefs. It's impossible. Unless and until another person can stand in your shoes and understand what you know in your life, there's no way they can say what is right or wrong for you. If you feel it's essential that you pursue your education and put your kids in day care, then you NEED to do it, and it's ludicrous for anyone else to tell you this is something you should not be doing. They don't know what you know. I've had my kids in and out of day care programs, babysitters, relatives, and nannies, and they're doing just fine aside from the fact they miss their mother. The key is they are loved, and they know they are loved. That love gives them resilience and sustains them. I can sense that your children are not wont for love Kris, and you needn't worry about this (too much).

You mentioned that your husband's solution seems to be to let you go and start over again. How short-sighted can that be? Does he really think he'll ever be able to find his own place in the future without some fundamental changes in his attitude. He's fooling himself terribly if he believes he can walk away from his family and "start over again." He will repeat this whole script again and again should he choose not to change things. Yeah, it's tough for him now, no doubt; but running away, or burying himself in his clinic, will not bring him peace in the long run. At some point medicine will lose it's allure and then what next? What happens to him when his long day is over and the last patient has been taken care of? With family gone, with his emotional support having drifted away, what then? There are some essentials things in life that medicine simply cannot provide. He simply has to learn to value these things too, just as much as he values his own success in medicine.

You say you come here for support and that you're viewed as being negative and angry. Well, I thought this site's purpose was to provide support. That's why I came here. I'm happy and glad for those people here who have a happy and contented relationship with their spouses, but there are those of us who don't feel this way and need something more. I say "vent," all you need to vent. What's the worst that can happen? We get kicked off the web site? So long as your honest and keep a dialog going, maybe, just maybe, something one of us says will make a difference, and that will be a good thing.

Art

Lynn, I felt a little insulted by your comment that Kristen and Jason were the most honest people here. Personally, I have never lied - especially about my relationship. There are some people here who have different (even healthier) relationships than others here and many different views on those relationships. I don't really think anyone here has been untruthful or ignorant of their own situations. Often, those of us who choose not to comment on all of the bad aspects of our marriages do so becuase we choose to focus on the positive aspects - in other words rather than keeping a tally of all of the disappointments and forgetting the positives, we choose to tally the wonderful things and forget the disappointments. Another thing to consider is that many of us choose not to detail every argument we have in a forum that would make it permanent - in other words where we or our spouses could go back and reread the argument and bad stuff and get mad all over again. For example, my husband posted something about a big fight we had a few weeks ago. I deleted it after we both agreed it would be silly to keep such a stupid conflict in a public place to be read by others and ourselves RATHER than coming to a conclusion, making up, and moving on with our lives. Plus, I was always told it is not very healthy or polite to fight in public. In addition, I myself do not feel comfortable detailing every aspect of my husband's faults in front of many strangers because it is very embarrassing to me and to him - HE knows his faults, why post them for all the world to see? In the experience of my marriage it is counterproductive to a person changing if it is ingrained within thier own minds and others' opinions that they are a "certain way". So, becuase I and others approach our relationships differently, it does not make us any less honest nor does it make us in "denial". I am hopeful I didn't hurt your feelings - one of my faults/strengths is that I am not subtle and I needed to get this off of my chest after seeing allusions to "honesty" in relationships on several occasions.

Hi Art....let me think about what you've said and i'll see what else i can think up.LOL One thing that just crossed my mind tho.What about you and your wife taking a weekend trip just for the 2 of you?Tell her you want it to be a romantic time to try to get back what you used to have?Maybe you need just special time without kids right now for the two of you.At least it would be a start.By asking you meet her halfway and by her saying yes,she meets you half way.Could that work??Post more soon.Your a good man...hang in there!

Lynn

The background you give, Art, really clarifies things very well. This is obviously not a problem that can just get a band-aid solution (like running away for a weekend) unless it is to discuss how to rectify the situation permanently. It does seem that there really is little you can do to improve this relationship if your wife simply isn't physically there to participate in the improvement! Perhaps she is retreating into her residency in order to avoid facing you and her own problems as well as conflict? How do you immediately respond to her when she walks through the door on the occasions that she does come home? Is it with a hug and kind words or a cold resentful demeanor? Perhaps she feels too "busy" when she does come home? As in there are too many "scheduled" things for her to do with you and the kids and she just wants to sit on the sofa and simply "be". I guess I am wondering as the first part if your home is a happy place that she physically wants to be in to begin with. Often my own husband wouldn't come home (and would find more "work" to do) simply to avoid the tense situation at home and the flare-ups that inevitably occurred. I guess I am simply saying that this is a huge problem and since you can't force her to change then perhaps you should closely examine yourself. Be kind to her in ways SHE wants you to be kind. Often we are kind to our spouse in ways that WE would like to be treated rather than really thinking about how THEY want to be treated. If your kindness is rebuffed at first, then you should continue your kind acts (have her make a list of things she would like you to do when she is hme that SHE considers kind and considerate) for two reasons: One is that you are improving yourself by doing this for her - regardless of her reactions, and two, you are bound to get a positive response eventually if you are truly being kind to her in the way she desires. That is simply a beginning to solving the problem, however, kindness and charity and a home your wife looks forward to beingin seem to be lacking in this relationship and this would seem to me the place to begin the changes. Hopefully you don't see this as me blaming you for all of the problems. On the contrary, I find your wife's actions reprehensible - particularly towards her children. However, you can't force her to change, but you CAN change yourself and your own reactions and since NO ONE is perfect we all have room to improve - so why not?

I am so sorry for the pain you are going through. As someone who was emotionally abused and terrorized for years I do sympathize. However, my husband a couple of years ago changed and did so in a remarkably quick time period. Now our lives still have problems but comparitively we have a really wonderful, growing relationship. I will not go into details and rehash the painful past, but I am truly sorry you are having such problems. I know that for me and my husband our problems were due to emotional abuse - not due to his choice of medicine as a career. He chose to retreat into that career as he could with any demanding career when things got rough (at least that is how the first two years of med school went). These last two (including the most difficult year) have been truly nice. Yeah, we fight, but no two people get along all of the time and now our disagreements are MUCH more healthy and pretty nonviolent. Your venting here is very much appopriate. As someone who doesn't post "negative" things about my marriage I think you should know that when you and Kristen write about your relationships I am one of those people who have survived such a relationship successfully. I do wonder if this whole mess started with medical school or has it been brewing for years? It sounds almost as if your wife has resented you and your success all of these years of marriage and is now "erupting" like a volcano! Did she quietly stand by during your career and put your needs first through most of the marriage? If she did - or at least thinks she did, then perhaps she is simply expecting the same of you ("it was your turn first, now it's mine"). I know that my husband and I have planned a similar arrangement - I get him through med school and training, etc and then he puts me through whatever I darn well please! Anyway, there are two sides to every coin, and I am curious as to what your wife's reasons are for all of this (if she even tells them to you) and what she would say to all of the views you have of your relationship. One thing I learned through all of my bad relationship years (and lots of counseling) was that it takes two to make a marriage and it takes two to have an emotionally abusive marriage (either an abuser/enabler or - much more common - two abusers married to each other). I am not implying you guys are either one, I am just curious as to what the other side of the coin is (her opinion) - be it a justified side or not.

Thanks for replying to my earlier post.

I should probably explain a little of our marital history so you can get a better feel for why I said "I never bought into this medical stuff" comment, lest you misunderstand where I was coming from.

When I met my wife we were both working. I had been out of college for over 10 years already. I was fairly established in my career by then. My wife had been out of college for two years and was only thinking of working a job and earning money and settling down into a lifestyle she always dreamed of. That "settled-ness" is what attracted me to her in the first place, it's what I wanted to. Of course, our professions back then had nothing to do with medicine. When we were married there wasn't any thought of medicine.

Skip forward ten years, two kids, and two ongoing careers later...my wife decides she want to switch careers out of her profession and into medicine. She had no "pre-med" courses in her college background. So she began taking courses, one and two at a time. We talked about her getting into medicine and she told me, in no uncertain terms, this is what she wanted to do, and that it would fulfill her better than what she had originally trained for. For all my misgivings about it, I said nothing. I really couldn't deny her the opportunity to make a new, more satisfying, career for herself. Back then (and now) I felt I was obligated to support her through this decision, both financially and emotionally.

Having been through a graduate and professional program myself previously (not medicine), I knew there would be sacrifices to be made, and it would be rigorous and tough on my wife who had never been through anything more than undergraduate school. I warned her repeatedly of not letting it take over her life, not letting it impact the kids and my lives, and that she would have to pay special attention to how she treated me and dealt with the family. I think my words went in one ear and out the other as if she didn't believe she would ever let things go that far. Or that it wouldn't happen to her.

Well, it didn't take very long for her to be completely consumed by medical school, rotations, etc. Yes, we had many problems before she entered school with her control issues and emotional abusiveness, but back then we had the time and resources to do things to forestall this. But now, there's no time to work on these issues. Her inability to devote any time to these things has only amplified these older problems. Also, she seems to have reverted to old behaviors. I guess she goes back to these very damaging habits as her means of coping with the stress and strain med school and residency bring her. It's my belief that, because of her own insecurity and fears over what she's doing, she has regressed to old controlling behaviors she used in the past as her means of feeling less fragile in what she does at clinic and in the hospitals. It's just too bad she directs these behaviors at those who are easy and vulnerable targets, me and the kids. Me, because I'm obligated to be supportive; and the kids because they're not permitted to push back.

My approach with her now is to confront her each and every time she chooses to behave this way towards me or the children. I honestly don't know what else I can do but to meet her head-on as forcefully as possible so she understands what she is doing and how it affects us. I don't let anything slide past me, not one single affront.

So far, I have only been able to get her to hold back the outward antagonism. I haven't been able to get her to be more loving, caring, or compassionate towards us. So, we now live in this emotional limbo land, with no outward antagonism, but with no good will either. I'm hoping this will come later. Perhaps when the residency ends.

So, what I mean by "not buying into this" is just that I blame medicine for robbing us of time and opportunity to make a marriage and a life for ourselves that we had years ago when we were married. I never believed back then something like this would happen to us; but, here we are, and I'm posting on public web sites searching for answers.

I apologize for seeming so bitter towards medicine, but I'm just being honest. I am bitter about it and my wife hasn't made one single move to make things better.

Art