Flesh eating toddler????

[houseelf]

My son goes to a SAHM's house while I work during the day.
Until recently, I have been extremely happy with this arrangement because we share similar parenting styles and she watches only a few children from attentive and loving families. One little boy, however, has been developing some aggressive tendencies lately. In August, this 2 year old shoved my son down in order to take away his toy. My son responded by biting him on the arm. We worked with my little boy to let him know that biting was not an appropriate response. However, both the sitter and I feel that the other little boy's mom has not been taking actions to curtail her son's aggressive behavior.

Anyway, yesterday this little boy wanted my son's pacifier and went over to him and hit him in the eye with a hot wheel and then bit him on the cheek and broke through the skin. Needless to say, I'm VERY upset. I want my son to feel safe and secure and I do NOT want him to learn this behavior. I talked to the other little boy's mom and she seemed to blow it off as boys being boys. She didn't even assure me that she would talk about it with her son or try to work with him.

Obviously, her ambivilence concerns me and I told my sitter that I want swifter action taken from now on even if it means that one of us parents have to come and pick up our child to separate them. I also want assurances that everyone is at least taking some proactive step to prevent this behavior.

I realize that this is a difficult situation for everyone involved. How do I handle this? What would you do? Is it time to move him?

Kelly

I think that the sitter has the responsibility when something like that happens to deal with the children. I do know that when children turn about 2 that they aren't able to empathize with another child yet and understand that they are hurting them.....but the behavior can't be allowed to continue for the sake of the both of your boys. Pushing, biting, and hair pulling are things all of our kids have probably done

I would say again though that the caregiver has the responsibility for protecting both children. What action is she taking when an incident like this occurs? The mother sounds a bit aloof...she probably feels badly about this happening too?

I remember when Finny was 2...she was really into hair pulling and biting and I was mortified. We went to a park one day and she went up to a 15 month old and pushed him down and then pulled his hair and wouldn't let go! We aren't violent people and I was so exasperated with her. I was pregnant with Alex and I was running to her as fast as I can...and the father of the child met me half way and told me that my daughter didn't belong around other children, etc, etc...yelled at me in front of all of the other moms there...I was so frustrated and upset with Finny...it took her almost a year to outgrow that behavior and now is sweet and sensitive ...she tells Alex now not to hit or pull hair...but boy was she a little devil .

I can relate to both sides on this one I guess, eh? So my final verdict is that the caregiver is the primary adult responsible for the children during the day and that she needs to be paying better attention or take better care of the situation. Have her outline what she is doing in these situations and if it doesn't improve then you may want to consider moving Cade.

Kris

[houseelf]

QUOTE: "Pushing, biting, and hair pulling are things all of our kids have probably done"

Dare you suggest that my darling angel is less than perfect?
(Totally kidding.)

On some level, I realize that kids are going to test boundaries and this scrape is the first of many to come. I just want all the adults to be working towards creating a safe, happy, nuturing environment and I'm not convinced that the other little boy's mom is taking this seriously. This child is Cade's best friend...I really don't envision him growing up to be Hannibal Lector or anything. He's a sweet and high spirited little guy.

Maybe this whole incident taps into my working mom's guilt. You know the thought pattern, "If I were a better mother, this wouldn't happen....." I know, I know, REALITY CHECK!

I have been contemplating child care options for awhile. There is a wonderful private montessori school next to our house which costs $240 a week. At this rate, annual tuition exceeds what I paid in annual tuition for my undergraduate education! But even if I don't put him into a preschool, child care exorbitantly high here: $220 for infant care, $205 for toddler care. This would be like a second mortgage payment and we're just scraping by now! I realize that child care is not the area to skimp in, but this just seems like an obscene amount of money.

Is my balking at these high costs just another example of my not being checked into reality? How did you guys find child care that is both high quality and affordable? I have to admit that the price of child care is one of many variables that we factor into planning our family. I'd really like to hear your input on this one.

Kelly

Kelly, this topic hits soooo close to home for me. My twins are almost three (in two months) and have a long history of fighting and biting that goes back to about 20 months old. At first, it was Natalie who was always the aggressor on poor Grace. I was so upset because time outs didn't work and trying to separate them was impossible (they gravitate into each other's personal "space" within seconds of breaking up a fight. At around 27 months, Grace started beating up on Natalie, and it is STILL happening today.

EVERY time Grace hits or bites, she gets a time out and I try to make her realize that she is the owner of her actions and their consequences. Today she threw sand at a friend (same age) and poor Connor was crying from the grit in his eyes. I talked to her for about ten minutes and she still didn't feel badly for hurting him. But when she hurts ME, she is very upset and starts to cry immediately and gives me a genuine appology. I think that toddlers do have a harder time realizing their consequences. I am always able to get an "I'm sorry" out of my girls, but the same thing happens the minute they get frustrated again. Natalie does occasionally aggress on Grace, but it's usually the other way around. One twin book I have says that twins around age two or three are either "kissing or killing each other".

Perhaps the dynamic between your son and this other boy are similar in that they are always around each other. So the newness wears off and the normal behaviour or not getting too close to new kids wears off.

No question it's extremely important what the caregiver does, and also what the parent does. I continually respond the same way (telling them it's not acceptable behaviour and giving them time out if they do not say they are sorry and are willing to play nicely--for however long that usually lasts!). But I honestly believe that your son might turn around and start dishing it back, and you will not know where it's coming from. Sometimes you just have to say "they're being two".

My husband and I do not hit, yell, scream or fight in front of the kids. We may "talk" things out, but my girls are not learning this from us. So then I wonder what it is. I've read books on twins, visiting the Twins Magazine message boards, and anything else I can think of. The bottom line is that some kids act on frustrations in aggressive ways, but I think it's more about coping skills than being poorly discinplined. Sometimes giving my girls alternatives works. For example, I might say to them: "Natalie, you're mad because Grace won't give you your train engine back. Right? (she responds yes) Then go ask her to give it back. (then I coach Grace to actually give it back)" It's all about teaching them to "use their words" (my way of phrasing it to them).

Kelly, I say all this, and they STILL fight. Sometimes ALL DAY LONG. And it drives me NUTS!!! But, it will end one day, I'm sure. I'll just have to do my best to not lose my mind in the meantime.

Kelly,

I read your first message last night and wanted to think about it for a little bit before responding. I cringed a little because I could see both sides of the issue having a son who was a biter and also having boys that have been bitten and hit. Kris said it better than I could. It really is the responsibility of the caretaker when something like that happens. It is hard to teach 2 year olds to not bite unless you are working with them right when it happens.

My then 4-year-old was hit in the head with a train track by a 2-year-old boy who was visiting with his parents. We almost had to get stitches. Of course, the parents felt terrible and the little boy was completely oblivious that he had done anything wrong. My guess is, the other mother feels badly too but may be frustrated with how to deal with it. I don't have the 'boys will be boys' philosophy but 2-year-olds are challenging in this area because they don't know their limits and are just starting to have reasoning skills. But ... even if the mother doesn't try to change the boys behavior, the caretaker needs to have ground rules at her home so the boy will know there are consequences while he is at her house.

If you like the caretaker, then I would try to make it work, especially with preschool costs and daycares being so expensive. If you have someone that you trust, that is the way to go.

It is hard to balance career and children but it sounds like you are doing the best that you can. The expensive preschools and daycares are not always the best for children. It depends on what you are looking for in a preschool or daycare. How many children does your SAHM have now? That is an important issue too if she can't keep up with all of them.

I only babysit one 5-year-old now since starting my new transcription job this week. For the past couple of weeks I was watching 2 more children ages 5 and 3. I had 5 children under 5 on those days and I was exhausted. The two new children are very destructive kids (they ripped all the baby's wall decorations off the wall and found a pen and scribbled all over a door). You would think I wasn't paying attention but I tried. For me, it was just too many children, especially when my school age kids came home and I was up to 7 kids. Anyway.... just another variable to look at.

Hang in there Kelly and good luck.

[houseelf]

Janet, Robin, Kris,

Thanks for all the invaluable advice. I'm really at a loss- I guess that I never saw this coming. I've talked to my sitter at length and I'm going to keep him with her for the time being. I like her small ratio of kids and her parenting styles. Plus, Cade doesn't do well in larger groups. When we drop him off at the church daycare, he sits alone in a chair and just watches the other kids without saying a word. I don't know what to do. <sigh>

Kelly

I suppose you could approach it this way: it's part of his life's training in conflict management. Seriously! Kids need to learn what to do when things don't go as they want/plan/anticipate. If he is met with this conflict, he might just learn ways to deal with it.

One of the books I've been reading suggests that you shouldn't intervene when kids fight unless physical danger is imminent. That's hard for me to do as I watch one of mine be unfair to the other. But if kids assume that an adult will always rescue them, then that is NOT a good thing. Kids need to learn some of the tougher things in life, like handling conflict in a constructive way. Also that instinctual reflex to defend yourself is a good one. I know it seems primitive, but two and three year olds play in a very primitive way.

I find that my friends with one child do not have to deal with this issue much, which makes life for them quite peaceful. Other friends with more than one children nearly all say that they have to deal with fighting, biting, pushing, and hitting. Even when the older one is senior by a few years! If you son learns how to stand up for himself and manage conflict now, he'll be in a better position when your next child is born (if you are planning on having more...sorry to just assume that!).

I think you should stick with it for a while. Any other day care situation would have the same thing happening there. I think the best thing is that you agree with the parenting style of your caregiver, and that she is not in charge of too many kids at one time. THAT must be a hard combination to find!

Hi Janet,

The book you're reading about adults not getting in the way w/kids - it's the way they teach school in Japan. Seriously! I learned in one of my classes that in Japan teachers do not intervene when kids fight in school. It's supposed to get kids to learn social behavior. I saw a video of a grade school class where these two kids were fighting to the point they were hitting each other. The teacher just let them be and I guess they settled down after awhile. It was kind of crazy! On the other hand, in American schools here the teacher will intervene if kids fight and try to teach them the "right" way. Kind of interesting...

-Rachel

That's interesting, Rachel. I think that the book I'm reading (Barbara Coloroso's best-selling book "Kids Are Worth It") advocates this for only when no physical fighting is going on. So that would be for "conflict" as opposed to outright slug-em fighting. I agree with this approach for toddlers, because you simply cannot reason with kids until they are older. You can explain the results of their actions and teach them to own up to their actions (for example, "You hurt Billy and now he is crying. It's your problem, so what are you going to do about it ... "), but really it is a matter of mental maturity until they are even able to empathize. So I agree with letting kids find their way somewhat, with intervention from parents regularly to "teach" the acceptable social behaviors.

My kids are almost three and they are on the cusp of starting to understand that they can "use their words" (as I say to them) to express their feelings. Still, the fur flies when their frustration reaches a critical point.

It is all so complex, such a long process (learning about life, afer all), and sooooooo EXHAUSTING for the parent/caregiver.

I really like Coloroso's approach. Her methods are based on promoting self discipline and self respect in children. She also firmly believes that kids should think for themselves and do the right thing becuase it's right, not because they have been taught to "behave". She says that if you control children to make them "mind", you will not develop a child that can think for themselves. Of course this requires some emotional and cognitive maturity in a child, but you need to start setting some foundation when the kids are still in their primitive-play stage. Her motto for fighting is "if you hit, you sit." Period. The one thing that keeps coming back to me is that she says you should never talk to a child in a disrespectful way. She says anything that would humiliate a 70-year-old person is also humiliating for a child.

Well, Kelly, I have to just add not to stress yourself out over this...you may even find that when Cade reaches the "terrific twos" that he will be the car-thrower for awhile. I know that when Andrew was a young toddler I would look at other children and could never imagine my perfect son not wanting to share his toys or hitting another child etc....seriously, I looked at mothers whose children did those things and wondered privately what they were doing wrong... Isn't that horrible....I did this until my own child began going through the "NO" stages and refused to share...even pushed our little neighbor down! At this point, with three children, I can emphatically say that "this too shall pass" and what is important is not really that your child is doing this because I do believe like Janet has said that this a normal phase of development that children go through. And children that age simply don't have the empathy yet...they are naturally egocentric. They are going through a developmental process and through some of these hard knocks...will learn that it does hurt to get hit with a toy car or be bitten,etc...

What is important in my eyes is the reaction by the parents and caregivers. A child this age simply doesn't understand yet and so yelling at the children or becoming angry don't really help. I sat and talked briefly with my children but when they were very young it seemed that redirection was necessary. I told them something like "we don't hit because it hurts other people" and separated the kids and gave them a new activity to work on...as they got older, we could practice and encourage sharing...Alex is 2 1/2 now and is a bit possessive of his toys...when we go to watch Andrew and Finny at Gymnastics there are a lot of little ones his age that run around in the waiting area together...and we bring toys...I try to start out by encouraging him to "share" his blocks with his "friends" and even will sometimes invite another child to play with Alex and I...and the kids will then play side by side....

But don't panic, Kelly...this is a pretty normal occurance! The first of many !!! A friend of mine was pregnant with her second when I was pregnant with my third. She had a 15 mo old when we met and she was exasperated at times by my 2 year old daughter who was rough and going through the "two's".....She was absolutely shocked when her own child stopped sharing and started pushing...she attributed it to my daughter and we saw much less of each other...more than a year after the birth of her daughter, she called me to say "I'm sorry for all of the things that I thought"! I would have rather been left not knowing that she'd thought them but....at least I can take some solace from knowing she's going through it now too

Kris

[houseelf]

All of your comments have rang true to my ears. Becoming a parent has dealt a HUGE reality blow to my former parenting theories. (READ: Before I had kids I lived in La La land).

Yes, I am a little hyper about my baby. Even though I know that every new stage is a normal part of his development, I stress: "He's not sleeping through the night at 11 months, what is wrong?" "He is not registering on the height and weight growth charts, why doesn't he eat?" "He and his best friend are engaging in aggressive behavior, how did I fail and how did this little boy's mom fail?" I can only imagine what the future holds besides a bottle of Malox.

Janet and Rachel's thoughts on some of the culturally embued expectations of our children sparks an interesting discussion. I've been reading that Americans, along with the Irish, are overly child-focused, thereby creating problems within the family and society at large. I can't remember the author of this book, but s/he attributed the high divorce rate to this phenomenon. Specifically, s/he opined that once a couple has a child, the marriage slowly decays and eventually crumbles under the neglect. Ironically, this course of action actually impairs the child's growth as the child feels that their parents are not the safe, solid harbor that will always exist.

Another book I read talked about the disservice that we do to our children by lowering our expectations of their abilities and contributions. Apparently, the native American children began to ride horses at 2, gathered wood as toddlers, and hunted with weapons at a very early stage. In comparison, our children contribute only minimally to the survival of the family under the auspices of a few chores. Anyway, this particular author argued that these lowered or non-existent expectations of our children impairs their sense of self worth. Of course, we are fortunate enough to live without many of the hardships known to these earlier societies.

All I know is that I've read enough titles to realize that no two experts agree on any aspect of child rearing! Much to my chagrin, there is no manual.

I guess that like any other parent, we will have to learn as we go. This is so much harder than what we anticipated!

[houseelf]

P.S. In an ironical twist, guess who was the "biter" yesterday and who was the "bitee".

Ugh. Pass the Malox

[DCJenn]

I just found this thread- but here's input from an adult behavioral standpoint. I have biters and kickers and skin-pickers (not to mention liers, stealers, drinkers and smokers!). Typically, we have found that the behaviors escalate when the message they are trying to get across to us isn't getting through. My autistic guys are really good at this- biting themselves just out of the sheer frustration of not being able to say what the problem is. Another issue is that sometimes through no fault of their own, they have learned that negative attention is better than no attention at all. I'm not saying that this child has that kind of home environment- but it's a very powerful behavioral 'tool' (of the worst kind!) One of my ladies is very angry- we think she was severely abused by her parent- and she just cannot function in the positive environment that we have. She literally pushes us in to having to react- like if she attacks her room-mate, she knows that we have to restrain her. It was becoming a vicious circle until we put her on 1:1, a luxury that not many families have.

90% of the time though- it's a lack of communication skills- they are angry and don't know how to demonstrate it because either they don't have the skills yet, or don't have the reasoning to know that it's anger that they are feeling.

So, good luck, and I'm really glad I have a behavioral specialist on my payroll that does nothing except develop behavior management plans for me! Just my two cents!

Jenn