WOW - i am a bit scared now. . .

i took some time from my paper writing marathon to read some of the previous postings and "diaries" on this board. i am now sufficiently petrified of my future marriage to my fiance.



there was so much negativity, resentment, hatred, loss of love, "where did my real husband go," etc. etc. etc.



is this the "real" picture? after reading those diaries and some of the postings, i don't know why anyone would attempt to marry a physician.



BUT a part of me (the idealistic, romantic side that my fiance loves) has to believe that we are different from "those" people. granted, i have no idea how life will turn out but i can only hope that we have all of the balls in our court. i am hoping that since we are both a little bit older and more mature (i'm speaking for myself mostly! ha) and he will be almost halfway through residency when i arrive on the scene full-time, that things will work out. i guess that is what i'm banking on - that things work out? that you just compromise and give and take and ultimately, things work out? and i've already told him that i can't picture myself right now without a job. . .that could change after residency but i don't want the financial strain that one income puts on couples. if i can eliminate one stress by working, i definitely will (i'm now speaking waaaaay into the future when we might start having kids) - i don't think nannies are that bad.



ok, i'm finished with my random thoughts. what does everyone else think? am i in a fantasy land? ANY thoughts on this topic will be much welcomed!



thanx & hope all of you are doing well!

claudia



p.s. one more thought - aren't these message boards inherently "negative" b/c most of us flock to them when things are not going well and we need to vent? i mean, i know that is when i am most likely to post!!

I had your exact thoughts when I began reading these posts. My husband is a first year in medical school. I was with him through his bachelors, and through his masters. So far I don't see any difference in his behavior in medical school. Sure, things aren't always perfect, but from day one his number one commitment has been our marriage. Even with his future career plans as a physician, he is always thinking of ways he can have a career with his family first. My husband and I had a discussion about this site and what the other wives are going through and his reply was "some of these guys who are being so negative to their wives now probably had a bit of a critical attitude to begin with." I'll be the first to admit I have gained a LOT of weight since we got married (I was married while on phen-fin) but my husband still sees his bride. I guess what I am trying to say is every man is different. Every commitment is different. Every relationship is different. I am sorry people out there have problems and I guess I am extraordinarily blessed to have the relationship I have - I would not trade it for the world and could never find another like it. I cannot judge my life or anticipate my life to mirror others, even if we are in the same professional boat. I do not expect to see my husband change dramatically because he is in medical school. I am sorry that others are having to experience that. But yes, these posts can make you feel a bit threatened in your relationship. I wish you and your fiancee the best of luck!



~ Amy

Hi Claudia....i have to agree with Amy that your relationship is what you make it.Phill and I have also agreed to make our marriage 1st in all that we do.We have been married to years as of yesterday and i have to say it is working for us.I also want to reply to your last post.We had a long distance relationship also for about 2years...him on west coast and me on east coast and i know where your coming from with the questios you ask.It is VERY hard!Unlike what some have said...your NOT married yet so you don't treat him like a husband and all that stuff.I know when your apart all the doubts you have and the doubts trusting.etc.back your NOT married to him and you KNOW he's not your husband yet.The distance changes things...like security,trust,knowing what is really going on and other things that you know i'm talking about.I'm leaving for the Carribean in a day and don't know if i'll have time to answer that post before i leave.Also i WILL make a happy post that we are finally getting a 2nd honeymoon so you see it's not all bad here!!!I don't understand where your coming from tho.

Lynn

Claudia- I wanted to reply to your post about being scared after reading most of the postings here. I have a couple of thoughts about your response.



First, I must say that I agree with the other two replies that it is what you make it. It takes a lot of effort to maintain a marriage to someone who works long hours especially in a profession as demanding as medicine. If you feel that it is really hard and hold a negative attitude it will probably be more difficult.

In addition, I think that each person's reaction to medical school or training is all relative. Some people take the long hours and lack of sleep harder than others. My husband likes to come home and veg and be alone when he is tired which I find difficult to deal with because I want to spend time with him. One of my husband's coworkers hates coming home to quiet and likes to have his wife and children there. So personality really makes a difference.



Secondly, I think you hit the nail on the head at the end of your response that some people come to this website as a place to be able to vent and find a common ground with others who have similar experiences being married to someone in medicine. Personally, I find myself checking the postings everyday. Reading about other people going through similar situations really helps me not take being married to a tired, withdrawn and frustrated guy who has little time for me or our relationship personally.



The whole thing might seem scary to you after reading some of the postings here. I read them to and think... "Is this what I have to look forward to for the next two and a half years?" I can relate your fears because I am newly married (6 months)and so far it has been very hard for both of us. Divorce and separation have entered our conversations but neither of us want that. We realized that we have to work harder and one of us may have to contribute more than the other at times. Every day he walks through the door I am happy to see him and I remember why I want to spend the rest of my life with him. Quality time is a very important term for us. So is not taking each other for granted.



I often wish my husband had a job which let us spend our weekends and holidays together. I also wonder if I am cut out to be married to someone in the medical profession. All the what ifs aren't going to make us any happier. The best rememdy is making the best of the what we have. My husband loves his job even though it leaves little time or energy for much else. I admire his commitment and strength to keep going for all these years from undergrad, masters, med school, residency and fellowship. I don't know if I could do it myself.



I think you will do well in your marriage because you are educated on advantages and disadvantages of being a medical spouse. Plus you can always seek support from this place!



Good Luck.

I agree with the previous post...that different people have different relationships and perspectives.



I will say that I used to think that my husband and I had an almost "fairy-tale" sort of marriage...Before our first child was born I used to go to coffee with some other moms...and I couldn't believe my EARS...I just "knew" that we were different from them. A close friend told me that things would change after children, but I figured...maybe in her marriage. I know that sounds like a terrible thing to think...but I just thought that our relationship would be different.



What changed for us happened slowly....but it was due in a large part to the stress and how WE as individuals coped with it...and I think that that is the key. I see medical couples go through this with much less difficulty because they either have less stress or deal with it better!! It sounds like you and your fiancee and Amy and her husband in particular have excellent coping skills to see them through the demands of training.



We have

1. moved 3 times in the last 5 years: Across the ocean (from europe) and to two different states

2. had 3 children in the last 6 years

3. suffered a death in the family, serious illness of one of our parents, divorce of the other set of parents, the death of a good friend...not to mention our family dog last year at halloween who was hit by a car.

4. undergone unbearable financial stresses thanks to loans coming out of deferrment and credit card debt from our moves, interviews and just getting by.



It has been a hard few years and without a medical residency...you would expect us to be depressed! ...but the added stress of 1:3, 1:4, working every other weekend...well, it has sort of tipped us over the edge. I think that those of us struggling the most are the ones that have also had a lot of "stuff" happen. My husband also never really learned to "cope" with stressful situations like this and so he is totally overwhelmed...



I would say to you that my husband and I are still best friends and despite the fact that we have been having some disagreements...we both agree that things will be better in 6 months when training is finally behind us (we have been doing residency/fellowship 7.5 years!)....and I think that it will.



I am glad that we can come here and talk about it...and I am glad that there are people who are struggling less who can share that as well.



I can't remember where you all are at in your training...but I thought that your fiancee was already doing residency? And it seems like you guys are doing fine...from what I understand it does get better after training...and it isn't as bad for some as it is for others...so don't worry!! ....and hey...if you all have a "positive" diary to share...go for it!!!



Kris


Edited by: kmmath  at: 12/3/00 9:19:58 pm

I can't sleep tonight because I have had too much coffee today, so I was up catching up on the board. I hadn't read for a few days because I was so busy on the weekend.



This thread is compelling. That's the only word I can think of to describe it. I see your point, Claudia. However, i was once in that earlier stage of our relationship too. I met my husband when I was 31 and he was 33. He was in second year med school after doing a fine art undergrad, followed by a biology undergrad. He was interesting, well rounded, thoughtful, and compassionate. He is a softer, more sensitive soul. He's not charged up by the "power" of being a doctor, and he's not at all energized by stressful "fight or flight" situations, which is what residency is all about. Residents are literally flying by the seat of their pants.



We had a magical relationship. We even had strangers come up to us and comment on what they could see by just looking at us. But that all changed with residency as my husband was hammered again and again. Most people cannot take abuse (verbal and psychological) without some affects. So, he's changed. Will he "recover" now that he's in a partnership job? Maybe. But if that happens, it is sure happening slowly, I'll tell you. I met a doctor once who told me it took 7 or 8 years to psychologically recover from medical training (residency is the front line of it). Do I hope for a recovery? EVERYDAY!



I think my husband and I do still have a special relationship, or we wouldn't have survived the things that training threw our way, and having twins in the final year of residency. And we wouldn't still dream of our life together. We have many, many serious issues we need to work through, so don't undermine the stresses I live with daily on his account. I just still very much miss that 33 year old. Back then, my husband use to say that he'd quit medicine if he ever thought it would ruin our relationship. Well, it almost has, and now all we can do is try to recover.



I do think things are a bit better after finishing residency, although we had to face him failing his board exams. What a way to finish it all off. It nearly finished him, but he picked himself up and struggled through one more year and then passed. Now I think I can say that we've left training behind. And I feel there is a mess to clean up. Sorry to be negative, but I'm being honest. I say all this while still loving him so very, very much. He is truely remarkable. Some of these things sustain us when the going gets rough. Hope is always there to hold on to, but don't make the mistake of thinking your relationship won't be affected because you are different. My mistake was believing that, and not recognizing when we could have benefitted from getting help working through problems. I just believed they'd magically disappear after training as easily as they appeared.

Yep, I think a lot of people come here for support and often you need the most support when things aren't going too well. My husband and I don't have a fairy tale marriage and we have experienced some very difficult times - but those events occurred for the most part before I ever found this site and had little to do with medical school. Medicine is a career that is difficult and different personalities handle the stress in different ways - some worse and some better. I would put my own husband in the "handling it very well" category and myself in the "handling it OK" category. I think that you can learn from both the good and the bad experiences. Should you be scared? Well, it depends on the attitude and maturity of your husband and yourself. Many things cause stress in a marriage and every successful marriage has to learn to cope with those difficulties. In a medical marriage one of the stresses just happens to be - medicine. My husband and I have been fortunate enough to have the stresses in our marriage make our relationship stronger. We have discovered our limits and make every effort to plan for events that will stretch those limits and prevent either one of us from "breaking". It's not all bad, in fact, I enjoy some of the adrenalin associated with all of it! And just think about some of the poor women married to stock brokers (all of the ones I have met work from about 6am to 10pm SIX days a week with little to no holidays!) or firefighters (at least your husband won't have his life in danger every time he goes off to work). I guess a lot of it has to do with attitude and perspective in my opinion.

Jennifer, I think you raise an important point, about other careers having unique stresses. However, maybe not all of them are as personality altering as medicine. I'll bet police officers and their spouses face some of these issues, only in their own unique way. When the training is too tough (medicine) or what you see at your job is too tough (law enforcement), it has to have an affect on you personally.



But it is easy to think that doctors are unique. However, because others go through it doesn't mean it's any easier.



I think we do tend to talk about the negatives. That's what's driving us batty, right? Usually the positives have nothing to do with medicine (a trip to the zoo, for example), and the negatives have everything to do with medicine (fights started by a stressed out spouse). Hmmmm...

Hi Claudia!



It's me, Christy! One thing I always try to do is not be negative because growing up my father was negative and I never wanted to be like that, so I worked hard to be of some encouragement to others and now my family. So, if I have sounded negative about my relationship about my hubby, please do forgive me. This is not my intention!



I have to say though that my husband and I are best friends and throughout med school I didn't see my husband as stressed as I see him today in residency. I mean he would study many hours with no stress showing and when he was with us, his wife and son, he was the best! He could add to the stability of our family. Now, I find that he is drained at the end of the day. And things that I once took for granted like taking out the trash or fixing the plumbing is now all left to me. It's not that I couldn't do these things, but that I didn't have to. I used to think when I read these posts about the difficulty of residency that they would never happen to me, to us. Yet, I find myself realizing that my responsibilities are greater now that Bob is in residency. I have to be more independent and to think I thought I was!!!! Marriage, medical or not, is what you make of it. Our marriage has gotten stronger over the years. Each of us has gotten stronger in our own ways adding to the uniqueness of our relationship. I enjoy being married; however, each day is not a walk in the park. This is probably true of any marriage too! I find that Bob and I have to find time for just us as a couple and then us as a family unit. This puts everything back in perspective in our relationship, finding time for ourselves.



Okay, am on on a tangent or what?



Well, I want to make one last comment. I believe it makes a huge difference when you do have children during med school and/or residency. Children are wonderful blessings; however, they take a lot of energy and attention. Sometimes, by the end of the day it's hard to be all romantic when you're lying on the floor and the kids are jumping all over you! Some days that's perfect, but other days you just don't want to tell your honey how you day truly went!



I hope you do find some encouraging posts...as there is no one I rather be with than my husband and in this medical marriage!!!!



Smiles,

Christy

My hubby and I went to a wedding for one of his medical school friends the day after I read the diaries. I would have to agree it sounded pretty bad. I wondered if things would get that way with my husband and I. I talked about it with a few other spouses and we all agreed that the problems these couples are having are probably rudimentary to their relationship in general and not necessarily to being a medical family. In other words, they might not be making their marriage a priority, or communication a priority, etc. AND everyone's experience is different and unique.



I really have to believe since my husband and I have been together for 7 years and through everything (getting rejected, getting accepted, 5 years of med school - his dad died during year 1, internship year, etc) that not all marriages have to be this way. My husband's number one priority when he is not at work is our son and me. He makes an effort and usually is successful at leaving his issues from work AT work.



I love my husband more today than I did yesterday - and that's even all while going through a medical career. I think the big thing that makes our marriage successful is the fact that I have my own life outside of our marriage. I have a full and rewarding career as a management consultant, as well as a sweet and adorable baby boy, and friends. We have lots to talk about besides his work when he gets home. Plus we have off loaded a lot of the household duties from both our agendas. Housecleaning is done by a service, we have daycare to take care of our son, the lawn is cut by a service and we've divided up the rest of the duties between the 2 of us. No our relationship is not perfect we do fight sometimes and have disagreements or get stressed out, but overall it is a great situation.



So I guess all my babbling is trying to make the point that there are successful medical marriages out there and it is what you and your husband make of the situation that counts.
Adrienne B.

I think this is a complicated issue. I can't remember who suggested it, but I think that the coping skills of a resident are key. My husband and I would have sworn up and down that we, of all couples, would never let medicine get in the way of our relationship. However, he's not a typical Type A personality, and he does not handle stress well. Many of life's skills, like coping with stress, are learned very early in life, and are very hard to change, especially when you are working so much and have NO time for individual or group counselling on those issues. So, what happens? The stress slowly but surely erodes things that are fundamental to a relationship.



I do have faith that we'll get over the injuries, and move on from them. However, these things didn't happen until the later years of residency. Maybe if my husband had passed the boards, it would have made a big difference. He was so looking forward to finishing and leaving it behind him. He deliberately did not seek out a fellowship because he knew he couldn't stand another year of training, so he was doing what he felt was best for himself. Perhaps that was equivalent to the straw that broke the camel's back. I think so.



ANyway, I don't mean to be so negative, I'm just expressing my feelings as I go through one of the harder times. I don't want to have to cover up my true feelings here, one of the only places where I can be truely honest about all of this.



As I've said before, if you sense some troubles along the way, you won't be like me if you realize that others go throgh this. I thought I was THE ONLY ONE, and I thought that my husband was somehow flawed or weak. I could have been more compassionate to him, instead of frustrated that he didn't "snap out of it". Maybe I made it worse? So, take my hard-won lesson, and don't blame yourself or your spouse for problems. Just get help dealing with them and loving each other through them. I almost left my husband and I am so grateful that I didn't.

Well guys, I was one of the ones that used to think "it will never happen to me" and I know, because I was there that I wouldn't have wanted to hear it...and I would have attributed the problems other couples were having to weaknesses in their relationships...as has been done here.



I can tell you that my husband and I did NOT have a flawed relationship when we started....we even did well during the first year of internship....



So what changed, you ask? Maybe it is my fault...my unrealistic expectations...my husband had always valued our family so much...he took off 3 weeks when Andrew was born and 2 weeks when Amanda was born...but he was only allowed 2 days when our youngest was born and he ended up in the NICU and I ended up having surgery...but that is the way the system worked. My husband has worked 80+ hours a week for over 7 years....and has missed every single child's birthday, alternating christmases or new years, every single thanksgiving, half of our wedding anniversaries...not to mention the fact that most months he does not make it home in time to have dinner with the family...well, you get the idea.



Things just are DIFFERENT during med school...they have more flexibility. It was so much nicer for us during those days because we still had TIME for each other despite his studying....but when they get into residency...and internship in particular, it is not unheard of for them to work from 7am to 8 or 9 pm...and have call 1:3 or 1:4....then maybe how YOU cope with that may make the difference. I harped on my husband wanting him to continue to help me get kids in bed and play with them...spend family time and time alone as we always had...and there he was running on almost no sleep. The first time he came home post-call and went straight off to bed was one of my hardest days. I found myself feeling increasingly angry and alone...because I had these expectations of how things would continue to be...I KNEW that I was different from all of those negative old biddys that were ahead of us...just felt it....



Honestly, I have to question anyone who can tell me that if their husband or wife is working those kind of hours non-stop that they won't have their relationship affected. I wouldn't believe them. I don't count a first-year med student in the same time-stress bracket as a first-year resident...because your time is no longer your own...and they will be working their tusshies off and be exhausted when they get home....I have seen many divorces over the last 7 years...and this has humbled me quite a bit. We are fortunate to not be one of them and I know that we will survive...but being a medical spouse is hard...



Here is my analogy section:



Recently my mother and I talke about having children. I asked her why she never shared with me how difficult it is to raise them...and she said "because you would have never believed me"...and she was right...I would have thought it was about her.



So why even share this with the newer people? I mean...maybe we should all be glossing this over and just be there for you when you are struggling...ie feeling like a plant needing water....but I think that honestly if I could go back and do it again knowing what I do now I would make changes in my expectations, my behavior and I think that things could be different. I guess one could say why prepare for labor...you can't change it and it isn't going to take the pain away...but I disagree with that as well...because preparing for these things can help us feel more in control...and I hope that you can respect what we have gone through over the years of training and learn from our mistakes.



So maybe we can make something positive come out of this...a support network for spouses...we are working on a book and a yearly convention with speakers who can talk about strengthening the medical marriage. Maybe speaking out will open the door to others to feel that they can do the same...maybe it will help some people.



I recently had a friend call me that I hadn't heard from in awhile. She had recently had her second and called me to apologize...she said "I never knew...I just didn't know what it was like"...she had secretly judged me when my children were out-of-control and my house was a mess...and there she was in the same boat.



I am sorry to be one of the negative ones right now...I guess no one is going to want to hear from me anymore....



sorry about that,



Kris
Edited by: kmmath  at: 12/4/00 1:39:37 pm

How many people like to hear Kristen's input raise your hand?



Me,me, I do, I do! [I'm raising my hand, can you see me?]



Kristen,



I believe you are speaking realities. Our husbands' jobs are time-consuming. No doubt! Somedays I think people find out what we are planning to do in the future and then make the "call" schedule. LOL I was thinking about all the responses and I will be one of the many who will stand by you and say "yes" a medical marriage is difficult at times. It can be stressful at times! And from speaking with you on other occasions, I know you're a great mother and wife. I'm sure you more wonderful than me who sometimes rebels against 'housework' and eats chocolate whenever possible. Heehee!



Anyway, your last post was absolutely great! And I for one now know there is a huge difference between medical school and residency. Like I previously stated, I just didn't believe it, but now I know how true it is that residency is much more difficult. In med school, students are not resposible for hardly anything, and now as a resident they are responsible for everything! They work hours past 5 o'clock schedule. And then there are days when they are "on-call" and then "post-call" which is sometimes worse because your spouse is home, but cannot stay awake one more second the moment he/she walks in the door. These are realities and are not necessarily negative. That's just the way it is. It is up to each of us to cope in any way we can by being in various organizations and maintaining our lives outside of our husbands. I strongly suggest getting involved in something you believe in or even your work if you so chose. I personally have chosen to become a stay-at-home mother instead of an elementary teacher. But that is a personal choice and one day I may go back into the field of teaching.



It is great to have a job while your husband is attending his job as a physician. It gives you some type of identity of your own. If you do not have children, I strongly recommend this. If you do have children,you may want to stay home with the children or perhaps you still want/need to go to work. This is something each individual must face. The point I am trying to make (not very good though) is have an outlet while your husband is in med school, residency, fellowship, or a practice. This IMO will make a difference in the stress factor.



Christy

wooooooow - looks like i started something! but i think we've had some healthy discussion to come out of it! there is so much i would love to respond to but i can't remember it all! first of all, i would like to apologize to anyone that i might have offended - i did not mean to imply that your marriages had problems that existed prior to medicine or that something just wasn't working right, etc. also, i want to apologize if i made it sound like i don't want to read "negativity" on the board - i guess it just hit me that there was SO much on the board, almost all of it was griping and complaining about husbands, etc.



i think all of you have made such excellent points about marriage. after thinking through this some more, i have reached this conclusion. i don't think a medical marriage is the most stressful marriage that one could be in - i think that bringing in coping skills and the correct expectations will help any marriage. i was thinking of a friend of mine who has been married for three years - they have more time together than anyone could ever hope for, and their marriage is on the rocks, no medicine involved. so i guess what i'm trying to say is that while some of the problems might be exaggerated by being married to a physician, i think that some of the problems just happen. and they would happen regardless. my brother-in-law works for a start-up internet company, he is soooo stressed every night b/c he has to "make the sale" - i think the suggestions of bringing in realistic expectations help tremendously. i finally finished my paper for my family seminar and i wrote seven pages on my expectations for marriage - i basically said i expect that my husband will not be home often. i expect that i will need to really dive into my career and find new friends and social outlets or i will go crazy and direct all of my frustration onto him which will affect our relationship. this way i won't be *as* disappointed as if i expected him to come home every night at 6pm and eat dinner with me.



he actually told me not to move there with him when he matched. i wanted to move and find some odd job and he said no, you will never be happy in the long run and then you'll get mad at me and i'll feel guilty and who knows what will happen to us. he said go to grad school, do what you love & you will be happy which will make me happy.



i'm not trying to sound like the idealistic, unrealistic little girl that i am probably coming off as...i promise. i'm 27 (not *too* young, i hope!) and i've watched my parents (medical marriage as well!) over the years and i think any marriage is rough. the divorce rate is 1:2 for ANY couple, medical or not. medicine DEFINITELY introduces stressors that don't exist necessarily in other marriages - but i agree with the earlier post, let's try to think of strategies to help each other and improve instead of dwelling on what is going wrong.

Hi Claudia!



I think your initial post was wonderful! Please note that you have in no way offended me. I enjoyed your thought-provoking questions. And I know I have to watch being negative and don't want to come off as everything in my marriage is peachy-keen or horrific! I try to maintain somewhat of a balance. Anyway, congrats on getting your paper finished! Doesn't it feel great to complete a paper and turn it in?



Anytime you want to discuss issues like this, I will be happy to give you my itty-bitty 2 cents worth. And know that I am a firm believer in that your marriage is a great as you want it to be! Love conquers all!



Hope to talk with again soon!

Christy
Romans 8:28