Do you believe you spoil an infant?

[samssugarmomma]

I haven't had time to read the whole thread. Hopefully we are still talking about if you can spoil a baby or not.

I personally don't believe that you can spoil a baby. We had a baby that always wanted to be held - day and night. As long as she was being held or in a sling - she was happy. Well, most of the time she was happy.

We've always believed that if DD was crying - it was because she needed something and that it was our job as her parents to figure out what it was and respond accordingly. That's not to say that we never let her cry, though. Sometimes, she had to be put down and cry a little so that I could shower/make lunch/get dressed/etc.

I guess that time will tell if we 'spoiled' her or not. I don't think that all of the holding and attention have negatively affected her though. If I can say so myself, she is one of the most polite and generous 2 year olds that I know!

[pstone]

An infant can not be spoiled.

OK, I agree with the you cannot "spoil" in the sense of spoil having a negative connotation of turning your kid into a brat.

But, I am assuming that after 6 months or so, the baby has enough cognitive capacity that you can reinforce certain baby behavior through your own reactions. That is, if your one-year old is startled and you rush in, sweep them up, and comfort them, that must reinforce for the one-year old that X thing that scared them is something she SHOULD be scared of!! Similarly, if your baby perceives being held as a reward/very positive stimulus and at their first squawk at naptime you lift them out of their crib, that reinforces the crying behavior.

So, spoil no. But, I can't imagine that years of behavioral research go out the window just because you are dealing with an older infant/toddler.

[DCJenn]

Well, my 20 years in behavior management has never been more tested...

But no, it's basic cause and effect but with all of the emotions attached that make you into a looney- or the lack of sleep or the lack of time/money/patience/whatever.

Kids are smart and they're smart enough to manipulate their environments at a very young age. Its no coincidence that learning to smile at your caregivers = getting picked up.

Jenn

[Gwendolyn]

I think though that there is a difference between spoiling and behavioral and social conditioning...right?

[DCJenn]

I'd like to see that study!

I'd say that it depends on who is being conditioned and in what way. WE act a certain way because it feels good to us to have a smiling cooing happy baby which is why parents get so freaky when baby is colicky- because they're doing everything right!

I honestly don't think that 'spoiling' can happen before they're two, really. I think you have to have some language to communicate with your caregivers to be able to be spoiled.

Jenn

[pstone]

Just love, comfort, and teach....Help them be a better person than you are.

toughest job ever.

[Sheherezade]

I always associate spoiling with expecting *things*, not time or attention. I suppose you could have the pouty, foot tapping kid that always wants you to talk to them first, but in general, a spoiled kid wants *stuff*. Now.

I don't think you get that with the behavior modification that takes place in an infant. I think that an infant learns "If I cry, you come". That's not all bad. I can see that in some cases you wouldn't want to reinforce a particularly annoying behavior....but in general, I think babies and little kids manipulate to get the things they think they need. They can't really ask yet - or tell you their thoughts on the matter. Manipulation may have a bad connotation, but it is just a means to an end. It's not evil. It's functional.

ITA - - the "manipulation" is adaptive behavior, what adult mammal succeeds in any environment without being able to elicit certain behaviors from others? This is why I think "spoiling" kind of misses the point. Its not that your infant is going to become some scheming manipulator or that cuddling them is going to lead them to grow into a whining demon-child.

When you look at it as what type of behavior do I want to reinforce, what type of causal connections do I want baby to understand, then I think it takes the emotional gunpowder out of the issue. I think babies should know that adults will come to their aid when they are in serious distress. But, I think you have to be leery of over-reinforcement of certain types of sleeping behavior, stranger anxiety, etc. And, its so natural to have happen because the baby learns 10 seconds of crying=out of crib and the parent meanwhile perceives 10 second cry=this baby is so bonded to me and really, really needs me and only me. So, as Jenn pointed out, the whole reinforcement thing is happening on both sides and I frequently see older infant/toddlers who have done a superb job training mom and dad!

I have been fascinated by behavioral theory ever since I read a book on dolphin training. So don't let me near your kids with a whistle . . .

But, I think you have to be leery of over-reinforcement of certain types of sleeping behavior, stranger anxiety, etc. And, its so natural to have happen because the baby learns 10 seconds of crying=out of crib and the parent meanwhile perceives 10 second cry=this baby is so bonded to me and really, really needs me and only me.

If I remember correctly, most parenting books say that infants can't make this distinction until they're around 6 months old, and delaying response to a crying baby before that point will really only make them feel insecure. Up to a certain point it's not about getting mommy or daddy to jump through hoops, but more about learning the feeling of love and security. To that end, a baby that feels secure and safe may be more content in the long run.

To be sure there are kids who have their parents "trained", but I'll guess I'm not alone in saying that what I thought was crazy / out of the question parental activity before I had kids changed significantly once I actually had the little buggers.

[Malpka]

Exactly. Until a baby has object permanance, when we leave their sight we cease to exist. All they know is they are alone and a need is not being met. They don't remember you until they see you again - which makes it seem impossible that they are lying intheir crib plotting out manipulation. Of course, things are much differnet with older babies and toddlers, but for small infants I see no reason to delay soothing them.

[Meenah]

At one time in my life I had quite a few theories on raising children. Now I have children and NO theories.

Jesher,
In my earlier post, same page, I specifically said that I was talking about kids over six months and in the post you read I said "older infant/toddler."

ME: "But, I am assuming that after 6 months or so, the baby has enough cognitive capacity that you can reinforce certain baby behavior through your own reactions." ** I can't do the box thing!!

Ladies, this is the THIRD time in a seven-day period someone has suggested to me that my opinions will change when I have kids and implied that my opinion is less meaningful. I would just like you all to imagine what it would feel like if I said: "Your opinion on politics or a career issue will change if you become a professional or get a job; reading the newspaper is just not the same." That would be an inaccurate and unkind thing for me to say and you would be justifiably outraged.

If anyone (parents, muslims, whatever) only converses with people who share their same experiences and life views, you can miss out on different ways of looking at things & new information (for example too bad I hesitated to comment on the exersaucer thread about the article I read reporting on a study showing short-term developmental delays in babies that used exersaucers - - I knew eventually someone would say only a non-parent would rely on medical study!!).

Is it possible that parents' opinions are just as vulnerable to criticism as my childless opinion because parents may be too close to the issue to see it clearly - - and probably don't have the time to I do to read everything in sight?

I am starting to feel a little testy on this issue . . . Jesher, I know your comment was very politely phrased, this is just cumulative frustration. Now my opinion is being dismissed because I haven't raised an infant when we actually agree completely on six months!!

[DCJenn]

Annie-

I couldn't have said it better myself.

if we want to exapolate further- did any of us have any idea what it was like to be a spouse before you got married (well, Luanne and I did having done it before) Of course we didn't. and I'm sure that everyone of us had an ideal in mind of what they would or wouldn't do "if I get married...". and I would be willing to bet that as a married person we've done things we swore we wouldn't and vice versa.

Parenting is much the same. We can have all the theories and read all the books we want to and the more the better. But the reality is nothing, NOTHING like you think it's going to be. It's way way better, scarier, traumatizing, funnier, etc. Just like being married.

Jenn

sms -

I'm sorry if you were offended - I did take great care to step lightly.

I don't think anyone is devaluing your opinion, just telling you to brace yourself.

ITA w/Annie. I think it's more that I've never met anyone who has said "I did all this research before having kids, and I've got to tell you - it worked out just like I expected. "

I would just like you all to imagine what it would feel like if I said: "Your opinion on politics or a career issue will change if you become a professional or get a job; reading the newspaper is just not the same." That would be an inaccurate and unkind thing for me to say and you would be justifiably outraged.

I would say the example you provided is inaccurate b/c most of us HAVE been professionals (many still are), and politically -- we're all in the same universe. However if you were to tell me I'm not qualified to pass judgement on something in your field of expertise -- I'd buy that. You work with it day in / day out. You KNOW the reality of it. (I'm not saying I'm a parenting expert - just an expert on the situation in my home).

I don't mind people w/o kids sharing what they've read, etc. It's when the opinon sounds as though it's judging another's parenting style that it bugs me. It's the old "walk a mile in their shoes" thing. Of course it's sensitive ... and therefore possibly prone to overreation ... and if I've offended you I apologize.

ETA: regarding the 6 month timeline -- you're right, that is what I posted. I think I continued on b/c mentally I always see those arbitrary dates as just that: totally arbitrary So I just went on w/my little point and skipped over the fact that we'd both chosen the same age.

Again - I'm sorry if I've offended you.