Do you believe you spoil an infant?

[Sheherezade]

Don't worry, sms. *Some* of our members treat everyone like that.


(I crack myself up. Feel free to ignore me.)

OK, I am over-reacting, but three times in one week!! And most were not as kind as Jesher (thanks for the nice note, Jesher).

Annie, when I said perhaps parents were too close I didn't mean it in a super-judgmental way, what I was trying to communicate is that maybe the view of someone who is not in the trenches, who is outside of things, has its own value. I think some parents are prone to their own biases (hyper-sensitivity, illusion of greater control over outcomes than they actually have, etc) just as childless people have their delusions of grandeur and easy parenting. If an iMSNer assumes that childless posters will tend to be insufficiently humble, overly judgmental, niave etc THEN I think the flip side of that is that that iMSNer should give equally rigorous examination to their own biases as a parent.

Jenn, of course, no one can imagine what having kids is like - - and there is an argument that given the uniqueness of each child, having your own children gives you no idea what anyone else's children are like. Yet, should that shut down discussion?

When I choose to comment on a parenting post, its because I have some background (e.g., education or some personal experience or for example I just published a paper on adult behaviorism/business settings which involved research on kids) OR I think the discussion has gotten really dull with everyone agreeing with each other and no fresh perspectives. Every single time I am told I could not possibly understand!!

More often than not, my views are generally quite moderate (I really think you all read the "training mom and dad" in some negative way, whereas what I meant was that when you watch baby-parent interaction, the different types of cries, smiles, giggles its clear that a baby who cannot communicate through spoken language is reinforcing the behaviors it enjoys, as the baby should! There is nothing judgmental about that and if a parent had written it NO ONE would be upset or would have jumped to the conclusion they were being judged, particularly given the content of my entire post).

Its nice that you guys might take my opinion more seriously on a professional issue in my field - - but, really you shouldn't. I am entirely committed to ideas as ideas, opinions as opinions and I engage them on their merits. I have seen too many brilliant secretaries and mediocre so-called experts in academia to do anything else . . .

All I ask, is JUDGE THE POST, NOT THE POSTER!!

[Sheherezade]

I didn't notice it three times, but I believe you. Try not to get too worked up about these comments, sms. You're bound to get them in ANY conversation about parenting with a parent. The transition to having kids blows most people away. It is such a huge change in perspective. I think most that go through it want to transfer this kernel of information to anyone considering it: "Get ready." Or "Brace yourself." Or....."It's unlike anything you can imagine." This reflects the nearly universal surprise at the difference in life "before kids" with life "after kids".

That said.....I had a different reaction to this statement in your post:

I would just like you all to imagine what it would feel like if I said: "Your opinion on politics or a career issue will change if you become a professional or get a job; reading the newspaper is just not the same." That would be an inaccurate and unkind thing for me to say and you would be justifiably outraged.

I think you'd be right on in many cases. Experience changes one's perspective on many things. That doesn't mean that an opinion is ever invalid -- but you do need to consider the angle at which the opinion was reached. I'd honestly give more weight to your opinions on life as a busy professional than others on this site. Is that wrong? I don't think so.

[Rapunzel]

Do you believe you can spoil an infant?

No.

The word spoil implies negative connotations. Spoil brings to mind going "bad" or rotten.

Holding a baby, picking her up when she is upset, taking care of her needs: These are all parts of helping a baby understand that she 1)can control her environment (important for future learning) and 2)is loved. Attachment disorder is what occurs in infants whose need for affection is ignored. And, from what I know from friends with (adopted) children having this disorder it is a truly awful thing.

I would say a child cannot truly become "spoiled" until they are into toddlerhood (ie over one year old).

[Michele]

[spotty_dog]

Every single time I am told I could not possibly understand!!

Used to drive me nutty too. The worst part was being young and not in a position to have children, but feeling like the instant I had a mewling newborn in my arms my opinions on every parenting topic from birth to age 18 would somehow gain value and respect -- which made me feel like I was being pressured to reproduce just so I could weigh in on a topic of interest to me!

It's not just iMSN. It's anywhere on the internet that parenting is discussed. And it's not just parenting. Before I had a dog I felt like my extensive reading on dog training and my personal observations were worth putting out into the fray, but because I didn't have a dog, the puppy owner's view of dealing with multiple dog households was more respected than mine.

Here's the thing. First, you've got to let it roll off your back. It's just the internet! It's a vibrant, dynamic and "real" corner of the internet, but these are still anonymous entities behind a screen, you know? And second, you've got to consider that maybe the first-hand perspective really does change things that dramatically. Knowing all the ways to teach a puppy not to mouth meant nothing when MY precious pup bit ME! And in his three months of life my son has taught me a lot about the fluidity of parent-child interaction. We are constantly learning from each other and there simply are no generalities to be had. I can tell you what works for us and maybe that information will be of help to you, but I can't tell you what is true of all 3 month old babies.

Anyway, just wanted you to know I feel your pain. Also, as an aside, I am a huge fan of behavior modification research and theory; operant conditioning is powerful and interesting stuff! I'd figured that interest would stand me in good stead as a parent but then I read Alfie Kohn and, after some reflection, I definitely agree with him that we're more than the sum of our conditioned behaviors.

Edit: Ugh, some of that is poorly written, I'm sorry but I'm one'handed due to a nursing babe (nak).

Thanks for the note, Alison

I am calmer now. I am going to work on developing a thicker-skin but my goodness, I feel like a crack addict mother with terrible parenting skills could come onto this site and the minute she said, "And I have three kids" . . . Wham . . her opinion is automatically legions more valid and helpful than mine!!

I am not a hard-core Skinner-ian behaviorist either. I just think its an interesting and valuable perspective and as long as the group was chatting others would find it interesting as well. Uh, I guess not.

I have given the whole thing some thought today. Perhaps the issue is that the parent posts, despite their subject headings, are not *really* posts seeking different opinions, feedback, new ideas etc. What they seem to be seeking is a hallelujah chorus of validation. And, maybe parenting is so strenous an effort that you really need that hallelujah chorus.

It seems a little limiting to me, but I clearly seem to be the outlier here . . .

[Rapunzel]

I have given the whole thing some thought today. Perhaps the issue is that the parent posts, despite their subject headings, are not *really* posts seeking different opinions, feedback, new ideas etc. What they seem to be seeking is a hallelujah chorus of validation. And, maybe parenting is so strenous an effort that you really need that hallelujah chorus.

It seems a little limiting to me, but I clearly seem to be the outlier here . . .

I think you just hit the nail on the head.

[mommax3]

I think that the initial post WAS actually seeking validation. When you have three little ones at home, the baby isn't sleeping, you have house guests, and your MIL questions your parenting choices, I think coming to a safe place for validation is the only answer!

Theoretical discussions are well and good, and I *believe* we have had some in this forum in the past, and I have enjoyed them. For those "in the trenches", though, practical advice and "what worked for me" stories are really all you have time to digest before dealing with the next parenting issue.

Sally

I wasn't so much referring to this particular post, Sally, more of a general comment. And, my post wasn't a comment on Phoebe's situation - -there had already been three pages of validation and it seemed like things had moved into a more general discussion; my post was about babies older than Phoebe's. And, Phoebe, if it seemed any other way to you, I apologize!

Maybe parents are so busy that they usually only have time for sound-byte practical advice from other parents in the trenches. My hunch, however, is that most of the parents and non-parents could be well on their way to Ph.ds in Developmental Psychology with all the time spent dinging around this site over the years. So, I am not sure time is the reason. . .

Perhaps, I need to find a more political or professional or intellectual internet group - - though I was always drawn to the diversity on this site and the bright, independent women. Or, maybe if I want to be listened to, I could recreate myself, always easily done on any forum: Introducing MSM92, wife and mother, part-time child psychiatric social worker for over ten years, mother of 3, leader of local La Leche group . . . I have no doubt in mind that I could pull this off with a little internet research and given the bias here is against parent-scrutinty. Then I could just repackage everything I have ever said into homey little anecdotes.

I could even have multiple personalities on the same site . . . Holy crap, this is an intriguing idea. I can't believe this hasn't occurred to me earlier - - why even try to resolve any conflict that has to do with your "status" if its on the internet. Someone says you don't understand because you are young? Wait a month a re-register as a baby boomer nearing retirement . . . You can even keep both personalities and measure the difference in other participants' reactions to them. I can't believe a sociologist hasn't done this . . .

SORRY for the total hijack of your post, Phoebe. And, ladies, watch out for new iMSN registrants in the coming months!!

I could even have multiple personalities on the same site . . . Holy crap, this is an intriguing idea. I can't believe this hasn't occurred to me earlier - - why even try to resolve any conflict that has to do with your "status" if its on the internet. Someone says you don't understand because you are young? Wait a month a re-register as a baby boomer nearing retirement . . . You can even keep both personalities and measure the difference in other participants' reactions to them. I can't believe a sociologist hasn't done this . . .

Admins would catch it. It's be tried before (or so I hear). They're a pretty slick group.

[Website Manager]

Locked. Take it to another thread if you'd like to try a new topic.