Residency/parenting question

[Auspicious]

I've been wondering, as I consider my own future . . . did anyone here ever have 1) a spouse in residency, 2) small children, and 3) a full-time job outside the home simultaneously?

I'm just curious if that ever happens, and if so, what kind of childcare situation makes it possible.

I appreciate hearing any experiences anyone wants to share.

Thanks!

[DCJenn]

Kelly-

Care to answer, here?

Jenn

(the answer is yes, it can be done!)

Kelly will definitely be able to answer this one! I also wanted to mention that I know many dual-physican couples and they are both in residency. They use daycare and/or nannies to deal with the childcare situation. Both are usually reasonable considering that you have two incomes coming in. Good luck!

[houseelf]

Julie,

Hi, I guess that I am a member who fits into this category. I have a two year old and a 31 year old who happens to be a third year resident. I work outside the home approximately 30 hours a week, which truthfully is about all I can handle. Although I have lots of things to say about this plan, I will try stick to your original question: child care for this scenario.

We use an inhome daycare provider. I interviewed several prospective candidates and felt really good about one in particular. I researched her license history with the County child care office and called parents of her current and previous day care kids. Although I constantly second guess myself on the working outside the home decision, If I'm honest with you I have to admit that my son has learned a lot of great things that he wouldn't have if I watched him 24/7. My little guy doesn't have any extended family here and my hubby is gone a lot of the time. This means that he is a mamma's boy like you have never seen. Since there will probably be a significant age gap between him and his future siblings, he has learned to negotiate peer relationships in a home setting. His sitter works with me on the problem areas. She helps me find solutions from different a different perspective. To illustrate, my guy has to be one of the pickiest eaters on the planet. The fact that his three other toddler friends are excited about pizza for lunch makes him at least try a food that I can't get him to touch at my house.

But I would be lying to you if I said that there aren't downsides as well. He was sick at least once a month his first year in daycare. He stayed at home with me for almost his first 8 months and wasn't sick once. Although for the most part I really like the families of the other children that he spends his day with, he occasionally picks up habits that don't gel with what I would expose him to. (I'm fairly anti-gun and another child introduced the concept of playing "guns" after learning it from his parents who don't screen tv as diligently as I try to in my household.)

I periodically research other child care options and have decided to keep him in his current situation. I continue to stop in at random times to check up on him. My sitter and I talk...even about the delicate subjects that are sometimes uncomfortable.

But there are several options out there besides this one. The last thing that I feel that it is important to consider is the financial aspect of needing child care for small children. Where we live a nanny costs about $400 a week. Some of the commercial daycare centers charge $250 a week for an infant. These arrangements can become cost ineffective in a hurry if you need child care for multiple children.

I hope that this has provided you some insight to child care choices for resident families.

Kelly

[Auspicious]

Thanks, Kelly. That's exactly the kind of information I was looking for.



Also, you said:

"I have a two year old and a 31 year old who happens to be a third year resident. I work outside the home approximately 30 hours a week, which truthfully is about all I can handle. Although I have lots of things to say about this plan, I will try stick to your original question . . ."

If you would like to elaborate on that, I'm all ears.

[Michele]

I am also all ears as I really want to have children as soon as Russ starts residency, which would also be the same time as I maybe start a residency for vet med. Can it be done???

Michele

[PrincessFiona]

My answer...

I'm not as qualified as Kelly to answer this, but I'm going to give it a go. During residency, I really kind of did it all....I was a sahm for awhile, went to school or worked part time for awhile and then spent one year working full-time before going back to being a sahm again...(pheeeew..I'm tired from just typing that!).

Some of the biggest issues that I faced were guilt and time for myself and my spouse. When I wasn't working, I often felt overwhelmed being the single parent of two (and then three) small children...though I love my children dearly and tried to do many things to stay active, I felt lonely. When I was going to school part-time or worked for one year full-time, I found it extremely difficult to find a balance for our family life and for me personally. I felt guilty when I wasn't home...most of my money went to things like childcare, afterschool care and buying more gas for the car, etc....so we weren't financially that much better off...it made very little difference in our financial lives. Also, I would be tired from spending a day in the lab and would have to come home and make dinner, get the kids ready for bed on my own, get them into bed...and then plan for my next day. I was also the only parent getting them up and off to school in the morning.....As a mom, I felt exhausted and a tad overwhelmed. I wasn't all there when I was home because I was so tired or preoccupied and when I was at work, I felt guilty. The laundry didn't get done in a timely fashing and was almost never folded...when I worked full-time finishing my thesis, we actually pulled our clothes right out of our clean clothes baskets to put them on 8O

We used a babysitter who came to our home for our youngest and preschool/kindergarten with the afterschool option for our two oldest. I felt much more comfortable leaving my youngest with someone who came to our home. When I went full-time for one year though, we had to use a daycare center. I felt pretty lousy about it, but he really loved it. He did a lot of socializing with non-siblings and has turned into our most social and well-adjusted child.....so I don't see that any damage was done.

As to being sick alot...we did encounter that initially with our youngest. Our oldest two though who had really never did anything but preschool two mornings a week when they were old enough, spent their entire first years of Kindergarten sick, sick, sick...so at some point, they will come into contact with those germs...it can't be avoided

I know of several spouses that worked fulltime outside the home and had children...where I would say that things suffered was not necessarily as much in the parenting arena....all would try and really spend quality time with the children...for us and for others, it seems that what suffered most was the marital relationship and having time for oneself...there are only so many hours in the day.

Being successful at working outside the home while having children and a spouse who is a resident takes careful planning, I think, and also depends a lot on the resident's specialty and the spouse's personality. I am in awe of all that Kelly does. I certainly could not have managed what she does!!!!


Kris

[houseelf]

Wow, Kris, I'm in awe of your accomplishments. I've heard your story before, but this just reiterated my belief that you single handedly held your family together during residency.

Now before y'all go and canonize me, let me give you the details of my situation. I have one child. I work for a judge who gave up her twenties and thirties in order to attain this position. She is cognizant of the fact that she missed the opportunity to have a family because of her career choices. Accordingly, she is very good to me as far as work/life issues go. As a government worker, I get lots of time off for national holidays plus my 3 weeks of vacation and additional sick days. Next, my boss gets 4 weeks vacation annually and I don't usually have to come into work during these times. Moreover, my boss serves as department chair for the district which entails an unusually large amount of public speaking engagements and educational endeavors. These events generally translate into my having this time off too. If I'm completely honest with you, I get about 10 weeks off a year. Plus, I only work about 30 hours to begin with. (Gee, I really hope that the State auditor isn't reading this post.) On top of all of these considerations, if I get into a real jam, 80% of my work, writing, can be done anywhere at anytime, so I could work from home. In short, I have the most family friendly job on the planet. Many working mom attorneys have left lucrative private practices for these positions.

Any of you who are contemplating the "working mom" road, please, please, please try to contemplate these work/life issues before finding out that your field is notoriously unfamily friendly (i.e. medicine. ).

Now that I have made this detailed disclaimer, you all still want to know my thoughts about parenting and working outside the home with a small child while dh is a surgery resident? (That's the kicker to the disclaimer above-- Sean arguably has choosen one of the most arduous specialities: academic general surgery with plans for a pediatric surgery fellowship.)

There are so many facets of this issue that merit discussion: the effect on the marital relationship, the effect on parenting, career marginalization, self identity, finances, maternal happiness, family planning, and on and on. I will limit this already lengthy thread to just one of these topics and if you are interested, I will talk about the other aspects as the conversation unfolds.

The effect of my working outside the home that has been on my mind the most recently is the effect that it has on my marriage. I never really have gotten over the guilt that I am not available to my son 24/7. Good, bad, or whatever, this is the truth of my situation. I do think that I am a pretty good parent because I make this my biggest priority in my life. If I ever get a break at work, I give this time to my son. Since I am a woman with only 24 hours in the day, this means that some other things get shifted around. If I'm honest with you, my time limits have had the effect of putting my husband's needs second. I rarely "baby" him. Maybe it is some sort of subconcious byproduct of low grade resentment for his residency, but if I have extra time or energy, I rarely do something special for hubby. Sure, I do the monthly date night and the annual couple-only vacation, but really this is about it. (Finally the truth comes out---maybe those marital problems that I gripe about at this board are a direct result of my own doing! 8O ) My flawed reasoning behind this displacement of hubby's needs is that my son will only be little once and his needs are much more urgent.

The good news is that I am aware of this problem and am taking some measure to remedy it. After all, our marriage is the bedrock of my son's family and happiness. But if I'm honest with you, if I had more time from not working outside the home, maybe I could baby both of them a little more. Lord knows that every resident out there could use a little more TLC.


I have so much more to say on the topic of working outside the home with little ones, good and bad, so if you are interested in more of my thoughts, let me know. Hopefully this is a starter for you all to mull over.

Kelly

[Auspicious]

Thanks, Kris and Kelly, for taking the time to reply--I really do appreciate it and it really is helpful.

In my own childhood both my parents worked full-time, but their schedules overlapped, so that my father would get us off to school and my mother would be the first to arrive home in the evening. I can picture myself in that sort of arrangement pretty easily, but having a spouse in residency and having to do essentially ALL the childrearing scares me.

My brothers and I went to both in-home daycare and daycare centers at various points, and in our case we preferred the centers. I think it's because we all have personalities such that we do better when our time is more structured (which is the main problem I think I'd have with being a full-time SAHM--not enough structure for me to thrive). I have mostly good memories of daycare and in my own experience it's a situation that can work well if it's chosen carefully.

we actually pulled our clothes right out of our clean clothes baskets to put them on

Kris, I laughed when I read this because we used to pull our clothes straight from the dryer, for days and we weren't allowed to own anything that needed ironing. I think I had a rather happy childhood in a rather filthy house. My mom did make sure to talk to us about our day every evening, though, and if she could only do one or the other, I think she made the right choice.

It's enlightening that you both say that it's the marriage that suffers, because as a kid I was of course largely unaware of what was going on in my parents' marriage. And it's interesting that you say the little "extras" are the first thing to go--that you don't get to baby your husband as much. This is one difference between my boyfriend's romantic style and mine--he definitely adores me and it shows, but he doesn't exactly show up with flowers or other elaborate gestures. No extras. Maybe his style is more effective in the long run. A sort of preparation for the lean times ahead, when we have to be time-efficient with our love. :P No? Maybe?

Ok, if you're still reading, I'm interested in hearing more. This is an interesting list:

There are so many facets of this issue that merit discussion: the effect on the marital relationship, the effect on parenting, career marginalization, self identity, finances, maternal happiness, family planning, and on and on.

How about family planning? Any thoughts in that direction, anyone?

[DCJenn]

Well- I can add a little-

We, kind of by default now, have been forced to wait until residency is over to start our family. The 'traditional' way doesn't seem to be working, so it's time to explore other ways of creating a family. I contacted the local Children's Shelter here but because we're leaving in 7 months, we aren't qualified to even begin foster/adoption proceedings.

On the other hand, residency has been a very nice time for us to be just us- with out any other added stresses. (I think getting married, starting new jobs and moving were plenty!) Now, I think we're more ready than not. (although, we sometimes waffle about the whole idea!)

Jenn

[houseelf]

O.K....so my thoughts on working outside the home and family planning....

Again, we are talking about a limited amount of resources, specifically time. I'm able to manage one kid pretty fairly well and we had the serendipitous luck (read: surprise) of having our first child fairly young at the ages of 26 and 28 respectively. This means that we still have some time(hopefully) to have a few more children with some space between them. I really don't think that my career would be a viable option with multiple children under the age of 5.

I would love to have 3 or 4 kids with the idealized three years between each of them. However, if I'm honest with you, we will be lucky to have 3 kids with 4 or 5 years between each of them because this is what we can afford emotionally, financially, and time wise while we both work outside the home. Of course, this plan is not entirely up to us. The hope is that we get one kid ready for kindergarten, out of expensive childcare, and more independent and then we start all over with a newborn. Or maybe I'm delusional and this plan isn't as fail proof as I think.

But again, this all comes down to maximizing resources rather than the romanticized, "Hey, let's have a glass of wine and make a baby because it feels right". But I guess that this is the way it goes sometimes.

Kelly

[Michele]

I added a thread in the Mr MD section asking if any of their SO's had children while in school or a residency. Only one response so far and it was Aisha seconding the question.

I don't have a ton of time tonight to write out all my questions and my "mullings" but they are coming. This is the biggest issue I'm dealing with right now. (I was late this month on my period and it made me all baby-crazy.) I want to ask some of the people in the path residencies and in the field if it's possible to have children while both parents are in a residency or how badly does residency strain your marriage, but there isn't anyone I feel comfortable approaching the subject with. The only person I asked about it said it was awful and her marriage just broke up 2 months ago because of it. 8O Oh my goodness! So I guess you all get to field the concerns until I can find people that I can talk to.

Any of you who are contemplating the "working mom" road, please, please, please try to contemplate these work/life issues before finding out that your field is notoriously unfamily friendly (i.e. medicine. ).

Which specialties are the most family friendly?

Michele

[DCJenn]

Peds, peds, peds....

All of our functions include everyone kids, we have a network of spouses who babysit each other's kids (some full-time, some as needed), and if you want to see a bunch of grown people get silly, bring an infant to a peds party!

Jenn

[houseelf]

I'll limit my comments to the information that I know first hand. Surgery has a bad reputation for being malignant. (Let's leave it at that and say that I'm being nice for the holiday. Awww.)

When I urged you to consider a family friendly field, I meant for a family friendly field for you personally, in whatever field that may be. After all, during any residency, you will probably be the one having to keep the whole thing going.

I guess that now that I have told you some of the negatives of working outside the home, I should talk about some of the pluses: More income and balance within the marriage. It is really not P.C. to discuss the latter topic, but too many people have lost marital equilibrium after leaving their jobs to stay at home full time to dismiss it as a non-issue. This doesn't mean you can't work through these issues, but division of labor, control of money, and warped expectations often creep up when one partner leaves the paid work force. Again, it is very un-p.c. to say, but my hubby believes that I'm a happier person when I'm working outside the home. I like contributing financially as well. (Note to the naysayers--Yes, I understand that there is a price to this decision and I grapple with those issues every single day.)

I'm not good at self organization, so having a clearly planned schedule helps me to stave off depression and get more done. My goals have to be more planned because my time is at more of a premium. I'm more devoted with my son when I'm with him instead of when I stayed at home full time and took all that time for granted at times. Plus, I enjoy the occasional career accolade that comes my way. It creates some amount of balance and personal fulfillment.

And while we're not getting ahead financially, we're not falling behind either. My student loan payments are damn near oppressive and it would be difficult to take out new loans to pay my old loans. Soooo....

I feel like I'm hedging on even talking about the advantages of working outside the home with small children because some people discount these reasons as selfish and shortsided, but in truth, there ARE a few undeniable advantages. I'm the first to point out the shortfalls, see above, but I want to give you the whole picture. Hopefully, this is more for you to chew on.

kelly

Peds, peds, peds....

All of our functions include everyone kids, we have a network of spouses who babysit each other's kids (some full-time, some as needed), and if you want to see a bunch of grown people get silly, bring an infant to a peds party!

I would also suggest Family Medicine for the same reasons ... I believe there has only been one "meeting" that didn't have kids specifically invited to attend. DH's program LOVES kids ... it isn't "do you have children" but "how many children do you two have?" around here.

Depending on the rotation (and program), family life is good for Family Medicine ... the bad rotations are PICU,NICU and Fam Med Hospital Service (2 months a year) ... oh and this program has 1 month of OB night float for interns that stinks too ... but it is not horrible. Like I mentioned on the other thread, we too are gearing up to start our family and so far DH's schedule has been pretty family friendly

Eventually life as a family doctor can be very family friendly depending on how you practice ... best to have a practice with at least 4 other docs so you can rotate call and vacation and things outside the office. It would also depend if you did house calls, OB, and nursing home calls. But it is a specialty you can practice anywhere ... so if you completely get stressed and overworked, you can go off and work the summer in Yellowstone National Park (at the clinic at Mammoth Springs) and relax.

Aisha