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**SueC** · 11-30-2002, 03:48 PM

Kris, I have no advice but I can totally relate. Our daughter (she'll be 3 in December) was potty trained right after she turned 2 and doing great for several months. Then for no reason at all she started having occasional accidents. This gradually got worse until she started having up to 5 accidents a day. I started by offering more positive reinforcement for dry days and she responded well to that for a few days. Then she'd be peeing her pants again until I came up with some new and exciting reward for her. I realized I was being manipulated so I stopped rewards altogether. Now, months later, she is STILL wetting her pants several times a day. I know she can control it because when we are out or someone else is watching her she does not have accidents. I have tried everything--time outs, rewards, ignoring it, giving her extra attention, and nothing is working. I am so tired of picking her up only to find that her pants are soaked and having piles of laundry that smell of urine. I have tried to figure out what we are doing wrong and I can't figure it out. Last night my husband threw away a DVD of hers each time she peed her pants and she did not even care. What stumps me is she is otherwise a good kid. She likes to please us and doesn't try to push our buttons in other ways. Sometimes I get so angry when I realize she has peed her pants again, and then I feel guilty for being too hard on her. My husband is going to talk to one of the behavioral psychologists at the hospital to see if they have any advice for us. Sorry--my response turned into a vent-session . This is such an exasperating topic for me!!!

**DCJenn** · 12-01-2002, 11:10 AM

Ok ladies- I just asked Rick, my favorite pediatrician-

First, he said make sure they don't have a UTI.

Second, he said that he tells parents that as much of a pain as it is, they don't really have to be entirely potty trained until they are ready to start school.

Third, he said get rid of outside reinforcers- toys, treats, etc. because they will learn to expect reinforcers for other 'life skills'. He also said to try to never add stress to the moment by yelling at them or punishing them. That will only prolong the process. Ignore the negative and praise the positive- effusively. Also, this is great attention seeking behavior. Kids learn that potty stuff is a huge button for most parents and that manipulating your 'skills' is a great way to get attention and negative attention is still attention and can be more powerful than positive.

(and by negative I mean punishing- not negative in the behavioral sciences sense which means to take away a reinforcer)

Jenn

**mommax3** · 12-01-2002, 09:11 PM

Hi all,

You are now talking to someone who has been completely humbled by going through potty training with two boys, who BOTH still (occasionally) have issues with the whole thing. Any time I talk to more experienced moms, they say "let it go" or something to that effect -- easier said than done, but I have tried to take their advice.

One suggestion that helped me deal with the problem -- if a child who has been totally trained wets his pants two times in one day, he would have to put on a pull-up. I didn't get mad at all, I just explained that Mommy couldn't handle any more laundry (which they completely understood because I am constantly working on never-ending piles of dirty clothes). That helped because they hated to go back to "baby stuff" like pull-ups. For dirty pants, once they were trained, I would make a big deal of throwing away the affected underwear, which the child hated, but after 3 years of changing poopy diapers for each kid, I feel like I have done my time and I am not about to get poop all over my hands in order to save a measly pair of Rugrats underwear. I also would give the kid a box of wipes and a plastic bag (for the "used" wipes and dirty underwear) and tell him to get started cleaning himself up -- I would supervise and finish the process. Not in a punitive way, (MOST of the time, at least) but just a natural consequence for a behavior they had shown me repeatedly they knew how to avoid. I would NOT do this to a kid who isn't all the way trained.

Doesn't help change the kids' behavior, I know. I did find it somewhat helpful to explain to them that they need to pay attention to what their body is telling them -- EVEN if their favorite video is on, or they are having a great time playing soccer with their friends, or whatever. But that only works if the problem is due to them waiting too long.

Other than that, I defer to Rick the pediatrician and pray that Nathan will be easier to train.

Sally

**DCJenn** · 12-02-2002, 11:07 AM

One caveat-

Rick the pediatrician was a complete failure with Petey the Dog and went against everything he recommended for kids for the first two weeks of puppy parenting. So, whose feet get peed on 100% of the time? Not mine....

also, I was thinking about this yesterday because I have this in the group homes (and let me tell you what a joy it is when it's adults and there's additional issues like feces smearing and peeing in drawers and closets).
According to our behavioral specialist- typically for people who are already 'trained'- uriniation is either laziness (Sally's video example is perfect!) or rebellion. Defecation is usually anger oriented. We also use Sally's technique of reinstituting the pull-ups (we use Depends!) until they can demonstrate that they don't need them any more.

But, Nature's Miracle (for sale in the Pet clean-up section at Petco and PetSmart) works wonders for any accidents that may end up in carpets

Jenn

**SueC** · 12-02-2002, 01:25 PM

We did rule out a UTI and unfortunately my daughter likes most of the other consequences--she loves cleaning herself up, picking out a different outfit to wear, and she would be in hog heaven if I put her in a pull-up so that she could play non-stop without having to stop to potty. I think ours definitely falls in the "laziness" category since she doesn't rebel in any other arena. I think I might have to start ignoring it completely--she is obviously getting something out of this repeated behavior! Have you made any progress Kris? Don't feel bad about not always reacting the right way--I lose my cool eventually also, its hard not to in this sort of situation!!!

**SueC** · 12-02-2002, 01:27 PM

I even threw away her prized Barbie panties and she didn't even care. I can't seem to come up with a consequence to grab her attention or that affects her enough for her to change the behavior.

**PrincessFiona** · 12-02-2002, 01:33 PM

regressing

Well, the only reason that I'm hesitant to go to the pediatrician and rule out a uti is that they are really freaky about wanting to catheterize children to rule it out.....We thought Amanda had one once because she complained of burning, etc..and she did the whole cup thing...and when it was positive for bacteria, they wanted to catheterize her to make sure it was indeed an infection and the pediatrician told me it was unusual for a girl to get a UTI...(I'm reminded of my many uti's as a little girl

: ).

I've asked Alex if he is having any pain or if it burns, etc...and he says no...so for now, that's good enough for me...sorry to all of you peds people out there...I just can't bring myself to go in and have my 3 year old catheterized to find out if a bladder infection is causing this regression.....

We actually made him wear a diaper one night this weekend because he had several little 'accidents'. I wasn't mean about it, but I just firmly said that I couldn't clean up any more pants that night. I also talked to him about his Friday Fun Night...In order for the kids to go, they must be potty trained. I told him that if he had more accidents he might not be able to go....and that has worked yesterday....we had no accidents.

I'm glad to hear I'm not alone (sorry 8) ). Sue, I'm afraid we might fall into the laziness category a bit too....this usually happens when he is playing with Andrew or Amanda and I'm assuming just doesn't want to stop.....

Kris

**SueC** · 12-02-2002, 01:45 PM

It sounds like if he is having "bowel accidents", that wouldn't be related to a UTI anyway, would it? I'm definitely not an expert, though. I'm surprised that your doctor said it was uncommon in girls--I thought UTI was common in girls but uncommon in boys--maybe I have that backwards. We took Maya in and she peed in a cup and it was negative, so nobody talked about using a catheter. Actually she thought it was cool to pee in a cup!!! Maybe if she was cathed she would quit peeing her pants

**PrincessFiona** · 12-02-2002, 01:52 PM

Maybe if she was cathed she would quit peeing her pants

I'm sorry for laughing...I just read the sentence and spit my coffee on the screen!

Poor Maya...and poor Sue!!!! I think part of what delights them is the attention that we give them...even the negative attention.....I once read somewhere that the bladder/bowel is a toddlers last area of control.....It's the one thing that they still can control over us poor, haggled, guilt-ridden moms!

My mom always advises me to ignore these phases (yah RIGHT!)..but she was right when it came to potty-training Alex in the first place...he was such a stinker about it. When I finally gave up then he potty-trained.

Maybe we just need to act like we could care less and give them no extra attention negative or positive?

I also thought that UTI's are more common in girls than boys....I was blown over when she said that....

Kris

**SueC** · 12-02-2002, 02:23 PM

That's true--I guess bowel/bladder control is the one thing they truly are 100% in control of. I'm glad to hear you guys had a dry day yesterday. We did not, however today has been good, so I'll keep my fingers crossed.
BTW, glad you got a chuckle out of the "catheter comment"--I was hoping people would realize I was kidding and not think I'm a terrible mother!!!

**DCJenn** · 12-02-2002, 04:07 PM

Sue-

I had a friend who 'invented' the "car catheter" which she wanted to market for women on long car trips.

Jenn

**PrincessFiona** · 12-02-2002, 04:40 PM

Car Catheter

UGH!

I prayed for a catheter in my last month of pregnancy each time...I swear I spent my entire last months of pregnancy in the bathroom...

During College, I drove to Houston with my dance prof..she was performing there and I went with her...she actually had a special kind of a plastic jar with a special top

8O that she used (thank GOD not while I was in the car!)

Thomas actually just lets me drive everywhere...when I feel in control of being able to pull over and stop I don't have to go as frequently.....I guess it's all in my head

Kris

**DCJenn** · 12-02-2002, 09:13 PM

Remind me to tell you guys the story of the Ice Storm on the DC Beltway sometime...

Let's just say it involves a Hardees Cup and fogged up windows...

Jenn

**SueC** · 12-02-2002, 10:49 PM

That's hilarious--my sister could use a car catheter--she can't be in the car for over an hour without having to stop and pee. I'll hold it for hours in the car because I HATE to stop!!! That's funny about your dance professor Kris--I want to hear the Ice Storm story Jenn!!!!!

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