Rewards, punishments and manipulation

[Ladybug]

Alison's thread got me over thinking. . After my post I started wondering if I'm still (unknowingly) teaching my children manipulative behavior by rewarding them for good behavior. Where do you draw the line? Can you start with external rewards and move to intrinsic rewards, or should you start with where you are going? DH and I were both raised similarly with negative consequences and positive rewards. We've continued that method on autopilot more or less. Alison's thread lead to an interesting, long discussion about this and how we want to continue from here. DH thinks that rewards for good behavior is the way the world turns, ie: work etc. I argued that work was an open exchange of services/goods, not necessarily a means of controlling behavior although there is some overlap. Most parents will reward good behavior or grades or whatever. My parents did. It was appreciated and I enjoyed the special recognition and still matured into an intrinsically motivated woman. Undoubtedly, I would I continued the same without the rewards, but again, I enjoyed them and felt recognized. But I don't want my children to learn that you control another person's behavior by either witholding or giving something they desire. And then there is ideals and reality, occasionally they overlap. I think I still need to tease out the difference between rewards and control. Who knew that wielding lollipops would be so complicated?

[ladymoreta]

Listening intently for BTDT moms (and dads!) to chime in... We're just getting to the point of deciding if/what/how often to use rewards for DS. He's been pretty happy with clapping and cheering, but that's starting to pass.

[alison]

Waiting for some others to chime in.

To confuse matters even more, I give dd lollipops when I feel like she might enjoy one, but primarily as a means to keep her a little busy. It definitely isn't all the time; she gets them 3x a week.

I don't think rewarding your kids causes them to manipulate you in any way. And manipulate how? Do they take out the trash more often, do their homework more? Isn't that the behavior that you're trying to positively reinforce?

From what I see, rewards are a genuinely appreciated result of doing something well/helping out.

[Ladybug]

I don't think they would necessarily manipulate me or go above and beyond (the rewards aren't that great ) but what if they learn the system and apply it to friendships and relationships. I want you to do something, so I will dangle something you wAnt (BFF status, whatever) until you do what I want you to do...then i will reward you with it. You could call it a "behavior choice" but isn't that essentially what I'm doing with my rewards? Maybe the key is sporadic, unexpected rewards after the fact?

[mommax3]

I think you can start with rewards, but you do run the risk of kids only helping out/obeying when there is something in it for them. One thing that helps is making the rewards sporadic. That being said, I think pretty much all parents start out with small rewards for little ones and phase those out as kids' understanding grows. The only thing I know for sure as a parent is that I am muddling through the best I can and have likely messed up more than I've succeeded!

[Pollyanna]

I've said this a million times but one of our sayings is, "you don't get rewarded for breathing". Meaning, dh and I have expectations as parents and simply meeting those expectations does not reap you any rewards. We expect our children to get good grades, we expect them to work hard in their extracurriculars, we expect them to be kind to their siblings, we expect them to learn and follow their faith, we expect them to be respectful to their parents. They don't get a "yay, you" for doing those things. By simply meeting the few expectations I have mentioned they will see rewards on their own. They will experience good relationships and support from their siblings and parents, they will experience scholarships and awards for good grades, they will experience a deeper meaning in life by following their faith. No amount of reward given by dh or I would ever be able to compete with the spoils they will earn on their own. Children will almost always rise to meet your expectations if those expectations are clear and attainable, and what is attainable in grades and athletics will be different for each child.

At the same time I do use chocolate as a reward for peeing on the potty and small gifts for pooping on the potty. If I used a treat to keep a toddler busy while waiting for a plane or something else I would not say, "this is a reward for being patient". I typically anticipate what will make a trip or activity better for everyone involved and plan ahead. They are expected to be patient but I do everything I can quietly behind the scenes to make that possible.

In the end I do not want to raise a bunch of kids that turn into entitled little brats. There are way too many med students that pout because an attending or residents didn't give them a pat on the back and say, "good job". STFU, you are EXPECTED to do a good job, if you screw up the resident will let you know. This goes in all careers. Everyone wants an "attaboy" these days and I think some of that comes from the "self esteem" culture. You can't give a child self esteem by handing out rewards, they have to earn it on their own for it to be real.

[SuzySunshine]

I use rewards to learn new behaviors, like potty training, staying in their room until the wake up light turns green, etc. After the behavior seems established I cut back until there are no longer rewards but we continue to praise their job well done.

That's the only thing I can offer, otherwise my kids are a mess.

[GrayMatterWife]

What Pollyanna said.

[alison]

SS--a sense of humor goes a long way! Your kids are and will be fine.

[DCJenn]

We don't do rewards as a rule. I'm way too disorganized to do something systematically. Heck, I'm just happy I bought a roll of dollar coins when he lost his first teeth and I've had it hidden in my drawer ever since. His reward is that he can play on the wii or watch TV or play on the computer for a couple minutes after homework is done and before dinner. After dinner it's piano practice and then bedtime prep. Not very exciting stuff in our house.

j

[HouseofWool]

I don't reward for expected good behaviors, like Tara said. But tonight, I promised Caleb a Amazon gift card if he goes above and beyond helping with his sister while I am packing and moving us. It won't be much, 10 bucks or so, but it will mean the world to him and it will be helpful to me to have her distracted so I can get a few more things done.

[spotty_dog]

I try not to praise, reward, or punish. I do try to be an emotion coach, a conflict mediator, and a role model for handling life situations. I am not above bribing occasionally to make life easier, but bribes are distinct from rewards (conditioned reinforcers). I am a "yes" parent about 95% of the time, but when I say "no" I mean it. I set high expectations, and if I do praise it's likely to sound like, "I knew you could," or "You look so proud, what do you think you'll do next?" I think my kids have pretty good behavior for preschoolers, and perhaps more importantly, *I* can live with them. I'm not sure I can ask for much more.

Tara, your take reminds me of this article. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117702894815776259.html

[Pollyanna]

Tara, your take reminds me of this article. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117702894815776259.html

Thanks for that link, we are going to read it with our kiddos. Holy moly, just shoot me if any of my kids turn out like that. I like the over 60 crowd who points out that they are recognized on weekly basis by a paycheck. Dh said his clinic does employee of the month (or week) but the kicker is that no one can get it twice so everyone gets recognized. So the award means absolutely nothing because even the worst employee gets recognized at some point so they don't "feel bad". Please let me throw up.

[MrsK]

I dunno. We discussed this a while ago when a child behavioural psychologist and our peditrician suggested we give our toddler stickers and praise for any "good" behaviour. Basically rewarding him for not hitting his brother, not biting, cooperating during meals and diaper changes...basically for engaging in any socially desirable behaviour and not only for exceptional behaviour. One day into that regime, I had a sticker-monster on my hands demanding stickers constantly, having tantrums if he didn't get the pumpkin sticker instead of a cat sticker, asking what he had to do to get a sticker, refusing to cooperate unless he got a sticker. I really did not like that and I felt like he was manipulating me. I had to scale it way back and try to only give stickers at specific times for specific behaviour. We are still struggling with when to give a reward. I try to remember to praise and reward when he is generally good because I realize that it's easy to overlook good behaviour and pay attention to bad behaviour. But I think it is important that he recognize that I'm in charge of rewardds and that they have to be earned rather than demanded.

I agree that it is very different if you are talking about toddlers vs older kids.

But, it seems like there is a fine line between "rewards" and "bribes." A reward comes after they do something good, sort of like a positive consequence. And, just like with negative consequences, they should be appropriate to the behavior. But if they know in advance that they will get something, then its more like a bribe. I think the "If you do... Then you get..." scenario is more likely to cause kids to start manipulating and expecting things.