Free Kindergarten

[Rapunzel]

As to govt. involvement...I don't know. It's stupid that you should have to get permission from the government to homeschool your children (though I supposed they are looking out to make sure that children are indeed getting an education. I'm sure that there are some parents that would the just do nothing with their children and this would be at a great cost to our society).

I thought I'd put a word in on this directly first: You can quite easily say, "It's stupid that you should have to get permission from the government to take your children home from the hospital (though I suppose they are looking out to make sure that children are indeed being raised well. I'm sure that there are some parents that would just do nothing - or worse I might add - with their children and this would be at a great cost to our society)."

You see, that argument for government permission to essentially choose to raise our own children applies to this situation. Should the government operate under the assumption that parents must be "tested" or "approved" prior to making decisions for and raising their own children? It's a slippery slope when we start thinking this way - and the media lately has been rapidly going down that slope might I add. The mentality that the government knows what is best for children is an old socialist ideal. Luckily for us as parents, our nation isn't quite socialist (yet).

Now, I'll stop picking on you, Kris.



I'm curious about some opinions on related topics (questions for everyone - remember, I stopped picking on you, Kris ):

1) What do you feel a child should primarily gain from kindergarten?

2) What is "socialization"?

3) At what age should a child learn to read (related to another post in this thread - but I'm curious as to the opinions here)?

Anyway, after reading this thread I had these questions come to mind because the answers are not obvious to me.

Jennifer

[Rapunzel]

All this talk of private schools reminded me that around here it costs about $15,000 per YEAR per CHILD for an average private school. And, that cost does NOT include uniforms, many field trip charges, pizza party contributions, etc. Pretty eye popping, huh? I have four kids - that works out to be about $60,000 per year 8O if I put them all in private school (not counting the uniform and other additional costs). What I wonder is, what in the world does a private school do with all that money? Does anyone know how much money public schools spend per child on average? I spend about $2000/year on my three older children's educations and I think they're doing pretty well (at least when I compare them to the local public school standards). So, with my own experience in mind I'm wondering just how much waste is involved in public and private educational institutions.... Because, in the end, I don't know that throwing a lot more money at the public school systems would necessarily improve anyone's educations. Whereas we learned from the moon experience that setting crazy goals such as putting a man on some rock in outer space contributes not only to science but to everyday technology (ie many of the everday items we now use are related either directly or indirectly to innovations necessary for space flights and even the moon landing). I look forward to seeing what advances are made in technology from meeting the goal of landing a human on Mars.

Jennifer

[mommax3]

Well, I don't know about the average....and I am sure that it varies according to where you live....but IN NO WAY do I want anyone to think we are paying $15,000/year for our kids to go to private school......it makes me catch my breath even to think of it!!!! A year of tuition at our school (which is K-3 through 8th grade) is about $4600. For subsequent children, you get a 10% discount. This school is accredited and has experienced, licensed teachers. There are two administrators, a receptionist, a bookkeeper, a computer teacher, an art teacher, a music teacher, two P.E. teachers, two custodians, and a couple of ladies that fix hot lunch daily. The lower grades (K-3) have two teachers per grade, and the class size ranges from 12 to 14 students per class. The upper grades just have one section and the class size is a little larger, but 18 is the top number of students allowed in an upper-level class. The school has been in operation for 50 years and owns its own building (OLD!), and a good amount of land. It has a denominational name, but does not receive any money from that church or any other.

This amount is not that unusual for what I am describing......I have found some that are less, lots that are about the same, and of course some that are more, but my kids wouldn't fit in with the kids attending those schools anyway. Like I said before, it is hard for us to pay even this much, but I really feel like we are getting a bargain. Teacher salaries alone and insurance is a huge cost. I can't imagine what the upkeep on the facility is, or how much the computers for the office staff and the computers for the kids are.....textbooks, library books, desks, other equipment......I feel like I am getting a lot for my money.

DH and I were just talking about this tonight....you hear all the time about how much different school districts spend per student and people get all up in arms about the results we are getting as a society from the money that has been spent......I wish someone could publish an uncomplicated breakdown of that money! Besides the educational requirements of a normal, untroubled/undisabled child, that money also goes to cover the substantial costs of special needs kids......even those that are basically vegetables. The teachers, aides, and administrators that deal with just the special needs students take up a lot of money. This is a HUGE drain on the schools, and they don't always do their jobs perfectly, but they take what they get and I believe the intent of most schools is to do the very best they can. Also, a lot of public education money is spent on administration and on people to push papers, because of all of the state and federal regulations......I think that there is a lot of waste there, like there is in any gov't agency, but by the same token, there has to be some accountability, too.

The public schools attempt to educate whoever comes through their doors, and while I choose private education and Rapunzel chooses to homeschool, not everyone is able to choose either of those. So I have a hard time bashing a system that although flawed, is still the best hope that many kids have.

Sally

[Flynn]

high risk kids

Here in Washington state, all day kindergarten is not offered in a lot of setting and yes, you do have to pay for it if it is offered.

Historically, all day kindergarten was introduced to our country for high-risk kids who were behind, neede extra time, and this also provided an alternative to day-care for struggling families. Now it is a big discussion in some areas.


To further discuss some other issues raised between public and private schools...

The teachers, aides, and administrators that deal with just the special needs students take up a lot of money. This is a HUGE drain on the schools, and they don't always do their jobs perfectly, but they take what they get and I believe the intent of most schools is to do the very best they can. Also, a lot of public education money is spent on administration and on people to push papers, because of all of the state and federal regulations......I think that there is a lot of waste there, like there is in any gov't agency, but by the same token, there has to be some accountability, too.

I've both seen, and experienced this first hand. I remember writing lesson plans for the exceptional kids, above average, average, below average, below average with behavior issues, special ed. kids, ESL kids and then tried to make them user friendly on paper for the 25% of the kids who were absent every day. Some classes had 7 different lesson plans. It's hard to be competent when you are dealing with this day in and day out regardless of your energy level.

As a former educator I was much more able to do my job in a private school setting than a public school setting. I found that reality very sad since I never went to a private school until college.

Bottom line, research research research!
It's time consuming and tedious at times but completely worth it in the long run. There is a "right choice" for your child based on what your family stresses and values.

Flynn

Jennifer, as Sally has noted, private schools do not all cost $15K/yr/child. I've looked into a private Catholic school for my children and they were only $6K/yr with 20% discount with additional child. Moreover, my kids qualified for a state scholarship which would only have me paying for one of my children - the other would've been free. In the end, when my husband and I discussed it, we chose to keep them in public school. Why? Because although it would've only cost us $6K/yr for both kids we decided we didn't have the 6K we didn't think our kids would really "suffer" in a public school. And even more basically, at this stage in our lives, we can't afford it. We figured we both made it through public schools to become well-adjusted, damned smart individuals even with our own dysfunctional families, then so can our kids.

Should the government operate under the assumption that parents must be "tested" or "approved" prior to making decisions for and raising their own children?

This is an extreme example. Of course it will never happen but you know what? Some people actually should. There are idiots out there who are so screwed they have no idea what goes into raising normal healthy kids. And if someone should say that I had to be "tested" then I say "okay" if it will help weed out some freaks from having the awesome responsibility of raising a child. Kind of like having to put up with all the extra security crap at the airport so that we don't get a couple more buildings caving in on us. I'm willing to make that sacrifice for that small percentage of people who have produced majorly screwed up kids who grow up to screwed up adults and make more screwed up kids.

You ask what do kids have to gain in kindergarten? They learn that they have to take turns, stand in line, be quiet at appropriate times, and basically have to live with the ups and downs of having to deal with other people. I'm not talking extremes here. I am talking about your run-of-the-mill kindergarten class with coloring, ABCs, dates/weather, arts and crafts which most children would be exposed to. Not the miniscule percentage of children who get molested or whatever - because the world is an imperfect place and we just have to deal with that. Will they be exposed to more negative (language, violence, stupidity) than what is seen at home? You bet. But one of these days, I have to let them go out and they will be exposed to it. It can either be when they are younger and can come home and ask me about it (and told under no circumstances should you ever do that), or it can be when they're 18, out of the house, and decide that it's a whole new world and they might actually like it - more than I'd like for them to in terms of promiscuity, drugs, alcohol, etc.

What is socialization? It is a feeling of belonging to a community outside their family although that is most important. For a child, it is feeling like the world is a safe, wonderful place - not one that is to be mistrusted or feared. It is making friends and being validated outside your home which is not a bad thing. Your family, for the most part, have to like you. Other people don't and it's good to see that you are a good person to others outside of mom and dad.

As far as when kids should be learning to read, I'm not a big fanatic about early reading. If any kid learns to read at the age of 3 or 4, good for them. I didn't push my kids to learn early (although they learned by the end of kindergarten) because I love to read and I didn't want my kids to dislike it by being pressured to. It takes the fun out of it and makes it a chore which they won't engage in when they are older. Is it important? Of course and I highly encourage it. But I've been known to tell my kids to put the book down and go outside and play because I want a well-rounded kid.

[PrincessFiona]

I look forward to seeing what advances are made in technology from meeting the goal of landing a human on Mars.

Me too, Sally...and may 'W' be the first man to fly there

But seriously..as much as we did benefit from the flight to the moon in terms of technology, the price just isn't worth it right now. A man on the moon is pretty unrealistic because of the radiation there and the temperature extremes. Then there are also the temperatures to deal with....Right now when we are running such overwhelming deficits I just don't think it is the time to talk about it. It isn't fiscally responsible. Lets straighten out some problems here first...find a way for everyone to get health insurance through their employers, have companies stop being able to move overseas or have tax shelters in other countries.....lets rebuild this country before we try and move on to another...then I'm all for it.

Private vs. Public...hmmm. I think we are very fortunate with our schools here...and we are fortunate because they have enough money for Title I programs, gifted and talented programs, etc. A large portion of our elementary school teachers here also have their Master's degrees 8O

What do I feel my child should learn from Kindergarten?

Mastery of the alphabet and several words, numbers and basic math concepts like putting things in order...also learning to take turns and do things like sit in circle time and pay attention, share, etc.... My children absolutely loved Kindergarten, Jennifer....and their favorite part of going to school is riding the bus..I think they have benefitted quite a bit from their experience with their friends and teachers.

What is socialization....It is learning to share, learning that other people have different ideas from you, learning how to be friends with others, learning to have compassion for others who are different from you....

Learning to Read...I honestly don't think that a certain age is important. Andrew wasn't interested in learning to read until 1st grade 8O He's now reading at a grade level of 6.3 in the third grade and is in the g/t program. Amanda started in the first grade as well..we thought that she was going to be a slow learner with reading because she had had zero interest in letters during Kindergarten...she is now reading at a level of 3.7 in the second grade and is also in the gifted battle of the books program....Her math is a whole other story though

gotta go...baby calling

kris

[mommax3]

Kris, I think the quote you referenced is from Jennifer..... I of course don't want to see W on the moon or Mars, but I kind of agree about prioritizing the money we spend on these kinds of things vs. money spent on things that have a direct effect on the quality of life for Americans.....

On to the questions that I didn't have time to answer last night!

1) What do you feel a child should primarily gain from kindergarten?

A sense of discipline and the ability to work somewhat independently.....ability to write upper- and lower-case letters semi-legibly, ability to write numbers up to 20 and use them in simple problems (i.e. how many heart shapes are in this box?)......ability to put things in order, sequentially and by size, ability to recognize patterns, ability to write first and last name, and ability to read and write short words......but mostly, the social aspects of school are huge the first year and I will address that with the next question....

2) What is "socialization"?

I believe that socialization is learning to function in society without having a parent there to smooth the way......of course, this should be done in baby steps and not all at once, but I think it is important that kids start leaving the nest in some small ways even at this age. Specifically, I appreciate the chances that my boys have had to form relationships with other children and adults without me being there to facilitate them. I think it is also good that they realize/learn that there are other authority figures out there besides mom and dad and that they have to obey them even if things aren't always "fair". I think it is a good opportunity for them to learn appropriate behavior and natural consequences -- i.e. if you act like a jerk, no one is going to want to be your friend. This is not always easy, and like any parent, I am there in the background, hovering! I have no problem with calling up a teacher if I have a question about something my child tells me, and I am at school often enough in various capacities that I have been able to get a sense of the personalities in each of my boys' classrooms. Sometimes my kids need some guidance in how to process things that have happened in class, and I am more than willing to help them with that. The road has been rough at times, especially for my oldest, but he seems to have hit his stride now and the confidence he has gained from navigating this is priceless. My second son is charm personified, so he has a much easier time, but he is learning that not EVERYONE thinks he is adorable, and that lesson is necessary for him, although it is hard. I do not feel like I send them to school and throw them to the wolves......I don't just say "deal with it" when they have troubles.....I try to help them figure things out with as little interference I can while staying on top of the situation. I think this forms character in my boys....when they are treated poorly, they learn not to treat others that way, and I hope they are learning empathy. I want to point out that I do think homeschooled children can learn these lessons as well, although not all of them do. I worked with a lot of homeschooled children at my church in San Antonio, and in my home, giving private and group music lessons. Most of the kids I was involved with acted in ways that I felt were appropriate for their age (not that I am the only one qualified to judge, but I have worked with a LOT of kids through the years) but there were a few that seemed a little immature emotionally and a little dependent on their moms. However, this was mostly NOT the case.

3) At what age should a child learn to read (related to another post in this thread - but I'm curious as to the opinions here)?

I don't have strong feelings on this one.....my oldest learned to read (no thanks to me.....I was astonished when I realized he was reading) when he was 4, and he was reading chapter books by the time kindergarten started. My second is just now beginning to read, more than halfway through kindergarten, and he had no real interest in even knowing the alphabet before kindergarten started! They are very different boys and I expect the differences will continue. I think I would be concerned if a child of mine was not reading at least a little bit by age 6.....I know there are differences of opinion on that one, though.

Sally

[Meenah]

This is an interesting thread. I'm really glad mine are in college. We had half day kindergarten, paid for by our taxes (there is nothing free!!!). My first went to half day kindergarten and then came home. My second went to full day private kindergarten. I feel they both got the same thing out of each program, some learning, some socialization, and a lot of fun with other kids. For high school Amy went to a private Friends prep school, Caroline went to public school. Each girl is different, but they are both now in college and really neat young women. I think the choice you make is individual and should be tailored to each particular child. One is not better than the other. I personally favor public school and did not pay the 20,000 per year for my daughters high school (her grandparents did). Amy said she wanted to go, it was her idea, and we told her if she could pay for it she could go!!!!! Well she found the $$$. When it came to the second daughter we made her apply to the private school (she did not want to go) because we did not want her to come back in 20 years and say we didn't let her go!!!!! She had the chance and turned it down . Just my .02.
Luanne

[Rapunzel]

I agree with Luanne! Reading various opinions on this thread is quite interesting!

First, Thu Van, you stated:

And if someone should say that I had to be "tested" then I say "okay" if it will help weed out some freaks from having the awesome responsibility of raising a child. Kind of like having to put up with all the extra security crap at the airport so that we don't get a couple more buildings caving in on us. I'm willing to make that sacrifice for that small percentage of people who have produced majorly screwed up kids who grow up to screwed up adults and make more screwed up kids.

So, are you saying you are OK with the government acting under the assumption that all parents are potentially abusive/neglectful and must therefore gain permission from the government in order to be entrusted with making decisions for their own children? You do realize that this is a basic, socialist principle, right? Should we all be considered guilty until proven innocent because a handful of individuals actually are guilty? When you boil it all down it comes to that: Are we guilty until proven innocent or vice versa?

I really appreciated Sally's and Flynn's perspectives as private school teachers. And, it's good to know that the prices for private schools in Boston are as outrageously too expensive as the housing market is. In this area you find quite a few families sending all of their children to private schools (mostly Catholic, but some of other denominations as well as a few secular ones) - which *might* explain,in part, the smaller family sizes I've noticed around here.

I found the answers to my various questions interesting. I have to agree with everyone that there doesn't seem to be a "set" age at which children MUST learn to read. I've known some people who have easily learned to read fluently by the age of three (my husband being one of them) and some children who have not learned to read until the age of 10. Interestingly, the only child I have personally known who did not choose to read until that older age is quite "normal" intellectually and currently attends Harvard. So, it does seem to be a completely subjective issue....

I was just curious about what everyone thinks a Kindergartener should learn. Just wondering on that one....

As far as socialization: That is an interesting subject because no one seems to have a consistant definition of the word or the "idea". The definition of the word, at least is (according to Webster):

1 : to make social; especially : to fit or train for a social environment
2 a : to constitute on a socialistic basis <socialize industry> b : to adapt to social needs or uses <socialize science>
3 : to organize group participation in <socialize a recitation>
intransitive senses : to participate actively in a social group

The definition of social:

1 : involving allies or confederates <the Social War between the Athenians and their allies>
2 a : marked by or passed in pleasant companionship with one's friends or associates <leads a very full social life> b : SOCIABLE c : of, relating to, or designed for sociability <a social club>
3 : of or relating to human society , the interaction of the individual and the group, or the welfare of human beings as members of society <social institutions>
4 a : tending to form cooperative and interdependent relationships with others of one's kind : GREGARIOUS b : living and breeding in more or less organized communities <social insects> c of a plant : tending to grow in groups or masses so as to form a pure stand
5 a : of, relating to, or based on rank or status in a particular society <a member of our social set> b : of, relating to, or characteristic of the upper classes c : FORMAL

Interestingly, I don't find any reference in the exclusion of family in these definitions (ie feeling of belonging to a community outside of one's famiy). I am curious as to why so many seem to believe that the family is not the most important place a child can ever learn to interact with other human beings. For instance, in the family we are forced to live with one another - we are essentiallly forced to work out our differences; we cannot run away or ignore as we can in a situation where we have differences with a non-family member. In a family individuals are forced to work towards the good of the whole in order to enhance their own lives. Isn't that the basis of a good civilization? I particularly like this version of the definition: "...tending to form cooperative and interdependent relationships with others of one's kind." After all, isn't that the entire basis and function of a family? Anyway, I find it curious how this definition has taken on such cultural overtones. I wonder what the cultural opinions of this idea would be for various other societies....

I'm curious to know what Sally meant by a child being immature emotionally (I was under the impression that was actually one of the definitions of "child"). And, exactly what is wrong with a child being dependant on their mother rather than other seven year olds (that age being an example)? I know that you said these children were an exception to the parent educated children you were acquainted with, but I'm still curious as to why this end of the spectrum was bad?

I wholeheartedly agree with many here that individual children need, well, individual approaches to their educations. I'll leave it at that.

Jennifer

[mommax3]

Jennifer, you said:

I am curious as to why so many seem to believe that the family is not the most important place a child can ever learn to interact with other human beings.

When you say "so many", I don't know if you are referring to those of us who answered, or society at large, but just to speak for myself, I agree that "the most important place a child can ever learn to interact with other human beings" is at home. After all, I haven't shipped my kids off to boarding school yet! However, my children are not going to live within the confines of our immediate family for the rest of their lives, so I think it is important that they learn to get along with others little by little, in gradually less controlled environments, so they can function normally in society when they are grown. The thing is, for my kids at least, (and I am sure for all the kids of those who are reading this) no matter what goes on at home, at the end of the day, we love each other. That isn't true in the real world and I think kids have to learn to deal with that at some point.

As for the immaturity issue I mentioned.....the kids I am talking about were between 11 and 13, and I don't think I am unreasonable in admitting that I expected/assumed that there would be a certain level of emotional independence present in these students. The two that I am talking about were shy almost to the point of being backward with me, even though they had known me for a while, and glanced at their moms before and after answering even the simplest questions. I am not saying that I expected them to have achieved an adult level of maturity (which some adults never even achieve!) but I was a little shocked by what I saw in this family.

There was another little boy who WAS seven, and I gave him piano lessons. He was very cute, verbal, and active, and the oldest of three. When he came for his lessons, his mom would pull a chair up to the piano bench, on the opposite side that I was sitting, and would stay there for the whole lesson. It was impossible. I would ask him to play a certain song, he would start out, mess up a little, (no big deal) start to make extensive excuses as to why he had messed up, and his mom would immediately take over. Then it was weird because I couldn't teach as I normally would have, and the boy was confused as to who was in charge.
The mom and I were friends and I finally told her she either needed to go upstairs (my house had a loft, so she could see and hear what was going on without being so apparent to her son) or go on the back porch. She took my advice and things got a lot easier. I don't think he was immature, but neither he nor his mother had very much experience at letting someone else be the authority figure for him, even for 30 minutes at a time. He ended up being a really good little pianist and is still playing as far as I know.

My point in talking about the emotional maturity was not to rip on homeschoolers.....some of my best friends are taking that route. My point was that homeschooling parents have to be very deliberate to expose their kids to the kind of "socialization" lessons that happen naturally when kids are educated outside the home. And most homeschoolers I know DO make those deliberate choices, through co-ops and church groups and field trips, etc.

And Jennifer, although I have taught, I have never actually been employed at a private school, except as a substitute teacher. Right now I just function as a very involved parent. However, the experiences I have had with private school so far has made me think A LOT about trying to work in one when my youngest starts school......the money would be less, but the experience would be much more pleasant.

Sally

[PrincessFiona]

I am curious as to why so many seem to believe that the family is not the most important place a child can ever learn to interact with other human beings.

Family is the most important place, Jennifer. But we interact with more than just our families throughout our lifetime. There are neighbors, co-workers (peers), bosses, mean college instructors :mrgeen: . Yes, a family lays the foundation for the child...but children have to learn the skill of interacting with others. They have to learn how to deal with bullies and bad teachers and their lives can be greatly enriched by the good teachers and the independence that they grow into as they learn to solve some problems without mom standing behind them.

At the end of the day, it is our job to prepare our children adequately to go into the world and become successful adults. There are many ways to do that...but I think it is a false assumption to think that there is only one right way.

I also thought a lot about the govt. involvement question last night..and I actually don't think it is bad that there are certain mandates. I was reminded of a woman I knew from a homeschool group with 4 children. Her oldest was autistic and her two youngest (twins) were developmentally delayed. She homeschooled her middle child....This little girl was in the 3rd grade and could not read well, etc. Her only socialization was the once a week ballet class that she had with my daughter. I remember at that time thinking that someone should intervene and put that child into school.

Not everyone is as intelligent and well-read as you, Jennifer. The laws are out there to protect the children, not punish the adults.

kris

[Meenah]

Wow, this is really interesting. I don't know much about home schooling other than I would never have the patience much less the organizational skills.
I knew two families who home schooled, one was what I thought a "normal" family, and the other a nutcase with kids who would probably never fit into society. Of course, show me two families who go to public school and maybe I would say the same thing. This was a long time ago and I would be interested to find out how they all turned out.
Luanne

So, are you saying you are OK with the government acting under the assumption that all parents are potentially abusive/neglectful and must therefore gain permission from the government in order to be entrusted with making decisions for their own children? You do realize that this is a basic, socialist principle, right? Should we all be considered guilty until proven innocent because a handful of individuals actually are guilty? When you boil it all down it comes to that: Are we guilty until proven innocent or vice versa?

That is a good comparison about guilty until proven guilty. I didn't realize I had socialist tendencies (no cheering now, Kris ) but at least it will balance out my Nazi ones. However, it will never happen so it's I'm not sure it's worth debating. What I was trying to point out is that part of the reason why public schools are faltering is because there are parental nincompoops out there who do a shoddy job of parenting. Their kids have no respect for authority and are disruptive in class. The other kids pay the price for that. That, I concede, is what sucks about public school.

I really appreciated Sally's and Flynn's perspectives as private school teachers. And, it's good to know that the prices for private schools in Boston are as outrageously too expensive as the housing market is. In this area you find quite a few families sending all of their children to private schools (mostly Catholic, but some of other denominations as well as a few secular ones) - which *might* explain,in part, the smaller family sizes I've noticed around here.

I don't get the connection between sending your kids to private schools and smaller family sizes.

Interestingly, I don't find any reference in the exclusion of family in these definitions (ie feeling of belonging to a community outside of one's famiy). I am curious as to why so many seem to believe that the family is not the most important place a child can ever learn to interact with other human beings.

I think it's interesting that there was NO mention of family. But I don't think anyone will disagree that family relationships are first and foremost the way children learn how to interact with others.

And lastly, I do believe that there is an 'emotional IQ'. And some people, children and adults, lack the ability to understand spoken and unspoken cues from others as to how they should act and react to others. They end up unintentionally offending or putting off others just because they can't understand undertones and body language. They also cannot sympathize/empathize. I think children do need to 'practice' interacting with others. At this point, I'm just rambling and I don't even care anymore.

Send your kids to public school, send them to private school, homeschool, or lock 'em in the basement. Your choice.

I think I need an aspirin. Make that 3.

[Flynn]

What I was trying to point out is that part of the reason why public schools are faltering is because there are parental nincompoops out there who do a shoddy job of parenting. Their kids have no respect for authority and are disruptive in class. The other kids pay the price for that. That, I concede, is what sucks about public school.

Yes, I agree this is a HUGE problem. Accountability is not taught in too many households in our country but it's also important to understand that the institution (public schools) as well as the public citizen who is also at fault. We don't fund our schools enough to make class size reasonable in some areas and so the system has to make due. Teachers are expected to do so much "crap" that has nothing to do with teaching because nobody else will...coaching, being in charge of all sorts of groups and clubs, tons of ridiculous meetings....and the list goes on. Public schools are also famous for not managing money well or putting idiots in charge...major issues where I live. The problem begins at home, I firmly believe this. However, the problem with public schools is so layered you can't stop there! In Washington state, MANY of the private schools match the public salaries or pay MORE!!!! Exciting to teachers because the work environment is AWESOME, but the flip side is that it is a sad time for public schools here. By the time I taught in a private school I was so TIRED I wasn't sure teaching was for me. I then taught at a college prep high school for two years and can't say enough about the experience. It was such an amazing place to be a part of!!! Will I go back to teaching? Maybe when my kids are in school full time -- but I would lean towards privates schools where teachers are not allowed to be abused and once a student crosses a certain line, they are expelled.

There are interesting challenges at a private school with some of the parents who think they "own" you since they pay your salary, but that's another topic!

[Flynn]

oops

I highlighted the wrong section in my last message....

Sorry!