Do you ever lose that baby yearning?

[SueC]

I used to kind of think we'd stop at two for zero population growth reasons, but after my two girls I really wanted one more baby. I never thought it ignorant to have more than two, though. Now that my little guy is here I of course wouldn't have it any other way. Besides we live in a neighborhood that is at least 1/3 gay, so I figure those of us that have more are balancing out people without kids. (Not to say gay couples can't have kids--the kid I watched for 3 years had two mommies).

[Meenah]

Geez, I am number five for my parents!!!!! Both with degrees, one with an advanced degree. I only had two myself, but wanted four. Of course now I am remarried with two stepchildren, so I suppose that makes four!!!
Luanne

[Auspicious]

Hmmm. Although I winced when I read it, too, I don't think alison_in_oh meant her post as negatively as it came across (based on how basically friendly her posts have been up to this point), and I think her position, while controversial, isn't that unusual.

A lot of people consider zero population growth to be an important environmental issue and feel that the more educated a person is the more likely they are to be aware of and responsive to environmental issues. Or at least that's how I interpreted what she was saying.

I'm not giving her post the thumbs-up or anything, but I can empathise with finding it difficult (though usually easy in hindsight ) to sense what's going to strike a nerve, and surprisingly difficult when it comes to people and their kids. I appreciate the way most parents will cut me some slack but also explain to me why I might want to revise what I go around saying. Yikes.

[PrincessFiona]

I don't think that she meant the post in an insulting way either....and my response to her may have been too harsh...I think that in general I'm just....tired of the constant battling that I have experienced since having children. Maybe this warrants a whole new thread but since it kind of comes naturally here, I'll just add it to this one.

Since having children I have heard what I should and shouldn't do from strangers, friends and loved ones (all conflicting advice of course). I've been looked down upon when my child acts up in the supermarket, been pointed to as an example on the day my children manage to sit through their entire meal at TGIF without fighting or arguing...I've been told I'm a bad mom for going back to school, have had it implied that I'm simply not very bright for staying home, listened to the comment "why even bother to have children if you aren't going to raise them yourself" for the semester that I had to go full-time to finish my MS.


I have also heard the discussion about two children many times and have listened to people imply that educated people only have two (and that's what the studies show..) and that people who choose to have more than one or two are not. That is the feeling that I got from alison's post, though I'm sure that is not what she meant. We were in the middle of discussing whether or not you 'lose' that baby feeling...then who wants to have a large family....in came the comment "we're educated, so we're only have two" from a non-parent.

Which is ok...I have to say that before we had children we had a lot of ideas about what constituted 'good' parenting. I mean...we bought cloth diapers, stocked up on organic baby food recipes (kudos to you if you followed through on that one) and decided that we were going to have three....girls Imagine my surprise when my firstborn was a boy , when the cloth diapers proved to be too much work (no diaper service in germany) and my washer was running constantly. We tossed the diapers after two weeks for disposable and never looked back. As to the organic baby food recipes...I think I might still have them somewhere, but I never used them.


I don't even know where I'm going with this post anymore...I think I'm just frustrated in general, guys. I don't want to compete. Why do we have to judge each other? Why can't we all stick together and say "medical training is hard" or "parenting is the most difficult and important thing I've ever done" and help each other? Instead life itself feels like a constant competition.....whose child can get into competitive gymnastics at age 3, who has the greenest lawn/most beautiful garden, who gained weight, who earns more money, who works full-time, who works part-time, who is a sahm, who home-schools, who sends their children to public/private schools. There are so many choice but instead of embracing each other and our choices it becomes a competition. Suddenly the sahm becomes the dumb one, the working mom the pariah (spelling?)....if you don't devote yourself 100% to your child and homeschool you just don't love them enough...If you admit being tired or having personal needs you are selfish...when does it stop?

When do we just get it that we are all in this together and we should be supportive of each other. I'm just battle-weary. Let me be clear....my lawn isn't the greenest, my marriage isn't perfect (but I love my husband dearly), my children aren't in any competitive sports, I have a child who excels at math beyond reason and a child that lags behind and has a tutor in math this summer...my house is usually messy because I'm ... lazy...and my laundry usually has to crawl up the stairs and knock on my door for me to get in and wash/dry/fold it. I'm not a gourmet chef and I don't aspire to be....I'm not perfect...I'm not close to perfect...actually, I'm so far from perfect that it is kind of sad. But I'm me...the choices that I make are ones that in many ways define me as a person and they are a result of my life experiences....to stay at home or to work, to have one child or 10.....to suck it up while my mil is here and to complain about it the whole time 8) .... and so when my choices are criticized, I feel personally attacked. I feel like instead of accepting myself that I constantly have to defend myself.

kris

[PrincessFiona]

Just to be clear here though, I do not think that alison was imply that and I apologize for a knee-jerk reaction.

kris

[Rapunzel]

Well, this thread is now the perfect example of why I no longer visit this site (except for very rare occasions such as today).

Basically you have a bunch of women (and a couple of men) who's only commonality is that they are married to persons in medicine (or engaged to them, or dating them, or possibly dating them in the future). If the purpose of this site is to disseminate information on what to expect during medical training (both med school and residency as well as fellowships) and/or the process of getting that first job as an attending (as well as other attending issues) then it is a commendable endeavor. Otherwise what happened on the Student Doctor Network is exactly what to expect here: As numbers grow the sense of "community" dies away and is replaced by a group that dominates what is acceptable thinking (call it popularity) and all other opinions are drowned out. What appears to be quite popular here is eliticism. In that vein, Alison in OH's crime isn't necessarily what she said - it was that she worded it so that her elitism showed unabashadley. That's absolutely a no-no for the other elitists on this site - you have to couch your elitism in terms so that if anyone points it out you can vehemenantly deny it and act appalled. Alison made the mistake of not putting her opinion (which seems to be held by a number of others here) in more delicate terminology.

Jennifer

[Auspicious]

I didn't think your reaction was harsh, just hurt, which is understandable. I only meant to say that it's hard to be the person who accidentally strikes a nerve, as well as the person who got stung. 'Sall good.

[mommax3]

Rapunzel,

Well, this thread is now the perfect example of why I no longer visit this site (except for very rare occasions such as today).

How did we get so unlucky today? Is it because you saw a chance to make someone feel bad? That seems to be your specialty. I would not be broken-hearted if your visits were even MORE rare, or non-existent as a matter of fact. It is laughable to me that you say this site is beginning to lack a sense of community when your posts have consistently been full of discord and attacks on other members. You do not only state your opinions, you denigrate anyone who disagrees with you......which sort of kills the whole "community" feeling.

If you don't have anything constructive or kind to say, then please just don't post.

Sally

[fluffhead]

people imply that educated people only have two (and that's what the studies show..)

There are many reasons that level of education correlates inversely with number of children - and I think that moral imperative to control population growth is probably near the bottom. More significant are
- Women with more education tend to delay childbirth, leaving fewer childbearing years, and tend to encounter more difficulty conceiving when finally trying to have kids, because they are older than the general childbearing population.
- More education implies career, and less time for childrearing.

Personally, before marriage I always assumed I would limit myself to 2, to keep population growth in check. Now I lean more toward 3. (talk to me again in a few years - it may be up or down

[PrincessFiona]

Actually, Jenn, I couldn't disagree more. I think one of the great things here is that there are so many unique perspectives. There are raging liberals here and fun-loving conservatives and people who fall on all sides of the political and child-rearing perspectives. btw...the admins here fall in at about 50/50 in terms of political beliefs, etc. This ensures a balanced perspective.

What you see happening here isn't what happens when a community grows 'too big'. It is what happens when people get together who come from various backgrounds and talk about ideas. Yes, we all have in common that we have spouses at certain levels of training...but don't we all meet people based on a certain commonality?...ie our children go to the same dance class or to the same school, our husbands work at the same company, etc? The purpose of this website is not to simply dole out information about residency and fellowship, it is also to provide a community for people who are going through an experience that many other people are not...husbands or wives who are gone for what feels like days at a time...raising children and doing the best that the can with little support or help, etc...and instead of choosing to discuss only med school, residency, fellowship, etc we talk about all kinds of things. In the process, some of us have also become friends. There are people here who have met offline and others who find that they have something in common and pm/email or even call each other.

If you have an opinion on something then say it....but not in a way that implies an attack on someone else...and lets face it, Jenn..the problem here has not been your opinion (it is valuable and based on your experiences) it has been the way at times that you have chosen to express it....Many people here respect the difficult task you have taken on of homeschooling your children, renovating your house, volunteering with your church, etc. No one here has made a disparaging remark about your choices...yet you have felt very free to impose your 'elitism' on those who make choices to work or go to school (or anything else you strongly disagree with). When someone disagrees with you are they being elitist?. See where I'm going with this? Are you actually charging that my expression of ideas is 'elitism' and that I come out and vehemently deny this 'elitism' when you so boldy express your own opinions? If I am being elitist, then so are you with your ideas. Have you considered that?

I have considered it. I have been guilty of pushing my views and being too bold. I have agonized over the choice of some of my words....I accepted that I was being too bold, apologized and tried to move on and learn from that.

You are right...it is not what alison said that was the problem...it was the fact that it was expressed during a discussion of having large families. Instead of saying "we only plan on having two children" she added the addendum about educated people choosing only to have two children in the middle of a light-hearted discussion about large families. I am certain that she didn't intend to 1. hurt anyone's feelings or 2. express an elitist point of view...but it did stop the conversation cold. How do you respond to that? After all, the insinuation was really that having more than two children was irresponsible in a light-hearted thread about having large famlies.

Obviously, you feel that there is some sort of couched elitism going on here and that only I am allowed to be among the...elite??? Have you considered that your expression of ideas could also be considered elitism? I can only laugh my butt off...I've never been elite at anything and I don't aspire to be. I'm sorry that you feel that way about how I have expressed myself. I will certainly do some self-reflection on my own posts.

kris

[Phoebe]

Can't we all just get along?

[PrincessFiona]

Alison,

Let me be the first to say that I'm sorry for my overreaction...obviously I let my own issues get in the way of my judgement. I misunderstood your intention based on arguments that I've heard in the past and assumed that your comments had the same meaning. Please accept my apology.

It would be a real shame if you didn't continue to add your own .02 cents in here....obviously we aren't afraid of stirring the pot here ourselves



kris

[houseelf]

Wow....even an innocous discussion brings out peoples' issues, mine included.

Please read this post with the levity and self-deprecating humor that I truly intend it to convey. I would be less than honest if I didn't admit that my visceral reaction to Allison_in_Ohio's comment was a smart a**, knee-jerk response like, "Yeah, my hillbilly, uneducated husband and I can't seem to stop screwing like rabbits." Unfortunately, the vacuum of the internet does not allow me to convey what would be intended to be a light-hearted response to an individual, whose biases, experience, and passions I do not know, so that she may see a different perspective. And it would be *elitist* to mention that my husband and I have almost 6 degrees between us, three of them being doctorates.

Unfortunately, however, a comment like this would only make me look like an a**. Heck, the truth of the matter is that maybe I am an a**. Actually, here is a thought, maybe we all a**es in our own right and we just need to give each other a little slack. After all, Rapunzel seems hell-bent on telling us what elitist a**es we all are. See, I do listen!

Now that I am sure that I have offended, when this truly was not my intention, I must add the following confession that will allow anyone feeling wounded to turn this into a feeling of self-righteousness.

The truth of the matter is that I was downright sanctimonious about how my marriage, residency, parenting, my career...blah, blah, blah... would be. I could laugh my head off when I think of DH and I talking about how "we would not succumb to the treacheries of a surgical residency" and "our child will never___________". Oh hell, you name it because we're downright smug about how we would be better.

Now I'm living the difference between the so-called plan and the actual life that is unfolding in all of its messy chaos. Truthfully, the chasm between the two is downright hysterical and serves up a daily dose of humility. I have a theory that there is a direct correlation between the level of pre-baby/pre-marriage sanctimony one feels and the amount of humility one must bear after these events occur. As I write this, I'm struggling to keep my four year old rottweiler puppy, oops, I mean son, from his constant displays of public nudity. 8O Now, there is some serious fodder for parenting advice books and discussions. Go crazy with your analysis.

In saying all of this, I realize that Rapunzel is correct, this is a somewhat of an elitist response. Essentially, my glibness discounts the opinions of the unmarried, non-parent's, pre-training members' opinions by saying, "Yeah, I felt that way too, come talk to me in a few years when/if these things happen." For my self-righteous take on things, I truly apologize. (I hated when my elders used to pull this crap on me and here I am spouting it off.) In truth, every opinion, whether based on experience or theory is welcomed here, as long as it is respectful. If it is not, this is where we shall part company.

So come one, come all. Show a little love, show a little a**. We all do in the end.

Kelly

[Flynn]

Hey -- thanks for the clarification and don't stay away just because of this!!! We all have stepped in it a time or two, myself included, so ponder away but don't leave for good! The written word has its limitations -- especially on topics we are responding quickly to and/or trying to speak on a loaded issue!

I value what you have to offer this site and was genuinely curious to have some follow up from you on your post -- no strings attached.
Thanks for following up and having the courage to say what you think!

[mommax3]

Alison,

Please stick around and post away. One thing about this place -- we are all pretty honest in our responses, which can make for some fireworks from time to time. BUT you always know where you stand here .....something that seems to be less and less the case in relationships the older I get. I appreciate the honest responses and there have been times when I have offended others here (and not due to a misunderstanding, either, as in your case, but just me being insensitive. )

Your clarification more than answers any questions I had regarding your initial post. Everyone here has "been there, done that" regarding some things, but none of us has been everywhere and done everything.....meaning that your thoughts are valid and valued here. You inadvertently tapped into an issue that is obviously a hot one. People shared their feelings about what they *thought* you said, and they will no doubt share their feelings about your clarification as well. At the end of the day, we all know each other a little better, flaws and all, and I think we can still support one another as we all continue on our jouneys as medical spouses.

Sally