SAH vs. WOTH

[migirl]

In light of the recent discussion in the "Debate" forum regarding SAH (stay-at-home) vs. WOTH (work-outside-the-home) parents, I'm curious to know if any of you would choose a different path if your spouse were not in the medical field?

So, if your spouse had a "normal" job with 9-5 hours and decent pay and you are currently a SAHP, would you work outside the home? Or if you are currently a WOTHP, would you choose to stay home?

I'm curious to hear other people's experiences with struggling with these decisions, and how the medical lifestyle (i.e., long, unpredictable hours with peanuts for pay) affects them. How have your personal career aspirations affected your decisions?

Personally, since my job is just a means for us to pay the bills (I would walk away tomorrow if I could), while I would love to be able to stay home with future children, it does not appear that our financial situation will support this decision. There are times when I feel bitter as he@# that we've chosen this medical journey that prevents me from making the decision to stay home and raise my children, but then I remind myself that it's only through the end of training which is only ... 6 more years.

[Flynn]

Hmmmm. A loaded topic for sure.

Having friends who SAH, work full time, work part time etc., this topic has come up a lot in our discussions. Some have DHs and some do not. It's a sensitive subject and at times people get offended not because of what others have said, but how they feel about their own personal decision. To work or not to work and how much to work... Guilt, restlesness, and doubt seem to layer this subject from my experience.

So with that being said, I'll tell you what I think about MY decision and keep in mind I am not commenting on anyone else's decision but mine. PHEW! (enough disclaimers there???)

From my perspective, my husband works horiffic hours so as the non-medical spouse it was (and is) my responsibility to stay at home so my daughter has one full time parent and one that is part time at best.

With that being said, I had the incredible blessing to KNOW that we could handle this financially, if we wanted to, for the rest of my DH's training. That meant that if I chose to work, it would be for me and only for me.

Our daughter was born in the middle of my DH's clinical R4 year and PGY6th year due to the lab. With a fellowship that meant we had about three and a half years to pinch pennies while I was not working and my DH was receiving residents pay (AKA crappy pay).

Prior to becoming a SAHM, I was a high school English teacher -- a job I loved, but not more than raising my daughter and seeing every new developmental phase first hand. I cannot express how thankful I am that I didn't have to research daycares, nannys or whatever child care was available in my area. There is NO substitute for Mom and Dad from my daughter's perspective, and if I had to hear what she had done that day from someone else, well, it would literally break my heart. That's just how I feel.

If my DH was in a different field with "normal" hours would I have considered working? Probably, because most likely his pay would be considerably less than what he stands to make in two years. I would have tried to not work, or worked part time until my children were in school full time. If we could swing that financially I think that would be ideal for us.

With regard to "career aspirations" I know that when some people read this, because I was "only a teacher," of course it was easier for me to make this decision. I was not a doc, or a lawyer or whatever other "high powered" profession that comes with the phrase "career aspirations." Whatever. I loved my job, and I was great at it most of the time.

I consider teaching to be extremely challenging. I liked how different my days could be and working with teenagers always keeps you on your toes. I learned as much from them as they did from me (maybe more actually).

I might go back someday but not for the money (what money? ) and not because I feel this deep desire to "work outside the home." I would go back only if the sacrifices to the family (because there would be sacrifice) were balanced with my desire to go back to a job I liked and was really good at. I am a lucky person to have that choice -- very, very lucky.

Now reading this post over, I must say that there is nobody more surprised that I feel this way than me. I was very pro-career, have your own life, shun "house wife" roles, not be the stereotype of a doc's wife, ...etc. This however, was before my daughter was born.

While I loved teaching and it it "lit my fire" on so many levels, it doesn't compare to being my daughter's mother. Not even close. Giving her, and eventually our next child, a stable, happy, nurturing environment is incredibly fulfilling to me. While the initial transition from "working and married with no kids" to a "full time SAHM" was bumpy at first and I did question my decision at times, I wouldn't have it any other way now. I truly LOVE my life at this moment and feel thankful that I am so content with the only "right choice" for our family -- for me to be home.

Flynn, I really enjoyed reading your post. I know of a lot of mothers who feel like they "should" stay home with their kids, but it's great to hear how much you love it.

This discussion has been very interesting and makes me think a lot about what I would want for myself in the future.

[Flynn]

Esther -- glad you liked what I wrote. It's a sticky topic and some people I have come in contact with resent that I am so content and home and wonder "why" I don't yearn for something more. Something more? Are they kidding? That idea though is more about them than it is me. As a result though, I still am very careful about what I say about this topic.

I feel sorry for people who HAVE to work (I wish they had a choice like me) but some parents are fantastic at making any situation work for them. Great parents come in all packages.


Thinking of this issue pre-parenthood is very wise. You will thank yourself in the long run that you took the time to really connect with how you feel about working inside or outside the home. There are so many layers to this issue regarding "self worth" and "identity." It can get complicated quickly!

Happy pondering!

[DCJenn]

Here is the "decision-tree" that we have made regarding the up-coming adoption.

First, I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE what I do. I am passionate about making things better for people with disabilities. I have a great job and work with some of the absolute pioneers in my field. Literally every week is a learning experience. Yes, the travel is getting old, but on the upside, I am accumulating enough FF miles that I may be able to have both trips to Russia paid for!!

Anyway, part of the reason why the timing was so very good for this adoption is that my job is a contract position and the contract ends next year. Second, we're moving in two years (90% likely). So, assuming that this adoption takes place within the next year, and I stay home for a year, that brings us to our next move, which would probably require a job change anyway.

One of the first things that the international adoption books tell you is that if you can it's better for attachment and bonding if one parent can be with the child for the first year. They (through no fault of their own) will have trust issues to start with, and language acquisition (if they're older) and often suffer from malnutrition and other developmental problems that usually go away. So, what have been doing my entire life? At this point, I believe that maybe in some bizarre way my career has me better prepared to be an adoptive mom than a birth mom.

So, the plan is- take all the time until we move, and then decide what the next step is. It's entirely dependent on how well the kiddo has adapted and where the Army sends us. I can't do what I do in Germany, anyway. Hawaii desperately needs services for people with DD/MR. San Antonio- I know the agencies there and I would only consider working for a select few. Seattle- who knows.

It's nice to be able to do this financially. However, the reason why we can do this has nothingto do with my husband and everything to do with the fact that I sold my condo at a 400% increase in value and then paid off all consumer debt, funded our retirement plans and paid for the home improvements which then increased the value of this home. He's lucky to have me!

Jenn

I agree with a lot of what Flynn said. My short answer is that if DH was not in the medical field, I would still be a SAHM, and probably a more comfortable one! Since we're only in our third year, we are literally scraping by on loan money and savings. It is very difficult at times, and I do miss going off to school or work, especially when I see how much DH enjoys what he is doing, but we both are very willing to give up what we have to for me to stay at home. We discussed it before I got pregnant, and we both decided that we wanted our children to have a SAHP. If I was incredibly career driven, he was completely willing to be that parent. I'm not that driven, and he is, so here we are. Both of us had mothers who stayed at home and who sacrificed a lot to do so. We felt we each gained so much from that, that we wanted our kids to have the same. I also couldn't imagine picking up my daughter from her sitter to get a report on what she did that day. I love staying at home with her, and I too feel so lucky to be able to do so. I am completely expecting to go back for a second degree someday and get a job that is what I love, and not something I need to pay the bills. I am very lucky.

[mommax3]

I always, always wanted to stay home with my kids, no matter what my husband did.....and I never imagined I would marry a doctor (although technically, I didn't.....I married a college student who was 19, who is NOW a doctor. ) My mom (single parent to four daughters from the time I (the oldest) was 6, by the way) raised me to think this way.....and she lived it. She didn't go back to school until all of us were in school because she thought it was important for us to be home with her and not in daycare......like she could have afforded daycare, anyway.

When I was in college as a music education major with pretty respectable SATs (they got me a scholarship) I was challenged by my advisor and by others to look into law school or more high-powered careers than teaching. I considered it for about a year, and decided that although I would love those careers, they would be much harder to leave and come back to when I had kids than teaching is. During this time, I also babysat and nannied for: a college professor and her artist husband who experienced years of infertility before having a daughter as they entered their forties, and a lawyer and cardiac nurse who had four kids and a CRAZY life, and I also worked for a summer at one of the "better" daycare centers in Indianapolis (it was called a "prep school" ) with school-aged kids. I factored all of those experiences into my decision and really felt like I didn't want to put my kids in those types of care situations. I totally romanticized what it would be like when I had kids, of course......I imagined at least a couple of little girls, and that we would wear matching dresses (think Laura Ashley) and the boys would be somewhat shy and very thoughtful. We would spend our days doing crafts and I would expose all of them to the simpler pleasures of life......tv would only be for very special occasions.

We had our first at the end of DH's second year of med school. He had taken an Air Force scholarship, and I had been teaching full time for five years at that point. Financially, things were great.....we had two cars that were paid for and we owned our home. We didn't travel or have many luxuries, but we had NO DEBT! I didn't really even consider going back to work after Luke was born.....my middle-schoolers (who I LOVED!) took all my energy and I didn't want Luke to only get what was left.....plus I couldn't imagine how I would pay for the daycare I would want for him. So at the beginning of MS III, DH started taking out student loans to finance my at-home parenthood. In November of his fourth year, I also started working as a nanny for a family of four kids (they were 7, 5, 3, and a newborn at the time) whose parents were an OB and a pediatrician who worked part-time. I took Luke, who was 18 months old, with me to their house. They paid me very well, but again I observed and saw that they were like hamsters on a wheel, just getting by, with no time to kick back and enjoy their kids. I knew I could not do that. I worked for them for six months and probably would have continued had my husband been allowed to do a civilian residency. Moving to San Antonio for a military residency was not at all in our plans, but the higher salary made it seem like a cakewalk for me to stay home. Our debt increased substantially when we were in San Antonio.....all credit card debt, I am sorry to say. It was mostly for home repairs, car repairs, and trips to see our family.....we were never really able to drive because DH didn't have enough time off. We also added a car payment on a new (used) car when one of ours gave out. Yes, there were some dinners out that snuck onto the credit card, too, but I really felt like we were fighting for our relationship due to DH's schedule, so sometimes we just said the hell with it and went out for a good meal. We sure didn't do any travelling or buy any furniture! In hindsight, we spent too much on our house......live and learn!

Real life......I have three boys who are very active and can be hell on wheels. My oldest lives on the edge of an ADD diagnosis and is scarily intelligent WAY beyond his years, although emotionally not mature enough many times to deal with the things he reads/hears/comprehends. My second was almost retained in Kindergarten this past year and we have been playing catch-up all summer......he doesn't really care for academics AT ALL, but is one of the sweetest boys you will ever meet. My youngest is following in the footsteps of the oldest, although he is a little calmer. I feel challenged EVERY DAY, and overwhelmed more than half of the time. My pre-child scenario has been shattered in a million pieces......I HATE crafts, anyway.....what was I thinkin?! I would go nuts without some well chosen videos, PBS, and NOGGIN to turn on at times. Things are a lot less peaceful than I imagined they would be, but strangely, that has only reinforced my desire to be home with them. Who else but a mother could love them in spite of the chaos that surrounds them? 8O If my oldest son had been in a daycare center atmosphere from the time he was young, I have no doubt that he would be on meds now.

We have made tremendous financial sacrifices because I have stayed home. Having to spend time in the Air Force was supposed to be sweetened by the fact that we had no debt, but that is not the case for us......although we do have less debt than we would have had without the scholarship. We have never been a two income family, and from observing other couples who have been, even for a year or two, it makes a HUGE difference. My husband will say now that he is glad I am home with the boys, but in the beginning, he didn't feel nearly as strongly about it as I did. There are definitely things we could have done differently/better, but on the whole, I wouldn't change things. I had my boys when I was 26, 29, and 32, and tried for several months to get pregnant each time. We have taken lots of chances through the years, yet I have never had a surprise pregnancy. Because of my husband's specialty, I hear stories every day about women my age (35) or younger who are having trouble getting pregnant.....and I am pretty sure that would be me, had we waited. Once you see your kids and get to know them, the second-guessing stops, because, at least for me, as soon as I think "what if we hadn't....." I realize that I am negating my child's existence, and I just can't go there. You really can't imagine your life without them once you have them.

I may go back to work at some point if I find a job that I have a passion for. I am very people-oriented and am definitely a born teacher, but it would have to be a perfect situation to get me back in the classroom again. I feel very blessed, coming from the background I did, to be able to stay home. I don't want to take anything away from my family by working....my kids need me too much right now. I don't know how I would EVER get the laundry done if I worked full time!

This is a slippery topic and one where it is very hard to not feel judged. So....I will stay away from that part.

I have thought a lot about your question, Jane, both when you asked it and in asking it of myself in the past. I should know better than to play the woulda/shoulda/coulda game but I do anyway.

My answer is...I just really don't know. Netting out everything that happens and taking a long term view, things have just sort of worked out financially and career wise. I had a job and a boss that I loved, loved, loved. I felt challenged, felt like I was good at it, and had a nice but not overwhelming amount of variety in it. On the other hand, I was growing increasingly frustrated with feeling like a single parent, resenting my DH for not doing more (even though I knew he couldn't do anything about it), and just getting tired. Along comes a big corporate merger that turned nasty and had lots of lay-offs. I saw the writing on the wall and realized that I could: 1) lay off one of my employees and do even more work myself or 2) negotiate a severance package for myself. I chose #2 because I was feeling overwhelmed as it was and knew it was getting worse.

It's hard for me to think of what I would have done differently had DH not been in medical school and about to start residency. I knew my boss would likely be laid off and the things I liked about my job would quickly disappear. I probably would have done the same thing (in getting out) but I don't know what my next move would have been. Had DH had more normal working hours, I probably would have looked for another full-time or 30 hr/wk job. I can't blame everything on the medical career though because I know plenty of people who SAH because their partner has a demanding job that is full time +. What would we have done then? Who knows?
I don't know if I answered your question (or mine!). However, I can relate to you feeling bitter about the career choice. I think the part of it that really gets me down is the amount of time it takes and how consuming it feels and how much it dominates decisions -- or makes it hard to make long-term decisions.

[houseelf]

I have truly enjoyed reading everyone's experiences...we all struggle with this and nothing hits closer to home than our children's well-being.

I'm laughing at Flynn's disclosure statements because she is right, this is such a loaded topic, likely to insight passions and misunderstandings all around, my own included if I'm very honest. I have to say that I think that this is SUCH a personal decision. Even then, if we are all honest with each other, everyone grapples with it at some level.

With that being said, here is my story, not a condemnation of anyone else's choosen path, or even an endorsement of my own.

I grew up in a VERY blue collar family in a very blue collar town. Mom worked. Dad worked two jobs. My brother and I went to corporate daycare followed by becoming latchkey kids after school. My mom stressed education and opportunity at every turn. Seriously, for being the daughter of a truck driver and telephone operator, I have traveled all over the world and have earned both a college and an advanced degree. She made sure that every penny of her disposable income (and then some) went towards exposing us kids to summer camps, music lessons, becoming foreign exchange students, SAT prep classes, college expenses, etc. Seriously, my parents could have lived a much more extravagent lifestyle but choose to funnel all their resources to my brother and me.

In my small and sheltered neck of the woods, mommies worked. They had to. I never once questioned this, and to this day I maintain that I have the best parents on the planet. Actually as I type this, I don't think that I had a single friend growing up who had a parent who stayed at home, with the exception of a neighbor girl whose mom was always drunk. It just wasn't common in my neighborhood.

College was a blast and I was pushed to go even further, "in case I had to make it in this world on my own". (Mom divorced Dad around this time and wanted my education to serve as a type of insurance for me). My mom always wanted me to be able to take care of myself and my kids. I traveled some more and lived life large. Lo and behold, I met a great guy on an even more high powered trajectory than me. DH was from such a similar background, we just worked.

We were so freakin' clueless, we just assumed that it would all work out and we would live in egalitarian bliss forever. I'd be a judge and he'd be a world reknowned surgeon. We didn't talk about the bills, the sink full of dirty dishes, or the petty grievances that come with real life.

......and then we got pregnant a few years before we had planned. This little surprise knocked our socks off. We fell head over heals with this little guy and he ruled our world. Very, very shortly thereafter, DH started an academic General Surgery residency far from our home town and we still believed that we could have it all.

Reality check: parenting is hard core and takes every fiber of your being somedays. Oh yeah, Marriage can be harder than you expected too. I won't even start on the chasm of difference between our perception of what residency looked like in our vision and how it has played out in reality.

I'll freely admit that I struggle with guilt about working outside the home. The criticism of working moms cut me to the quick. Currently, I only have one child and work 25-30 hours a week with a ton of time off and a generous maternity leave policy. Still, no criticism hurts me more than the inference that I am hurting my child. I'm gettting teary eyed as I write this. Still, with all his rambunctious ways, he is turning out just fine and is an amazing little human being. He is a momma's boy to his core.

On the other hand, my work is wildly interesting and the people I work with are bright and engaging (although I do work with a fair amount of morons too). My work allows me to make decisions that profoundly touch peoples' life. True confession: Even if we won the lottery tomorrow, I don't know that I'd quit. I learn something new everyday on this job. It isn't taking my career anywhere fast, but I enjoy it.

Actually, I think if DH wasn't in such a grueling profession, I'd have less anxiety than I do now about working. Because the truth of the matter is that most of this parenting business is up to me because of his job. DH is a great husband and father, but his residency takes a toll on his ability to be fully engaged in our family. If he had a saner career and accompanying lifestyle, we could achieve that elusive "egalitarian" marriage that only exists in theory. (Again, stop me from my delusions!)

After this very long story (are you still with me? ) I guess that with my background and preferences, I would have to say that I would probably still work if DH wasn't a surgeon but I may have less guilt about it.

Now that I have exposed myself, step right up and take your pot shots at me! I'm all yours!

Kelly

Oh, Kelly, I hear you. I really do. I have those same thoughts loop through my head all the time. Had I won the lottery mid-way through my last FT job, I would have kept on working. Sometimes I think I would be happier and be a better parent if I had a regular PT position (rather than come and go of consulting) and sometimes I wonder the same if I just gave up on career entirely. Who knows....who knows....

[mommax3]

No pot shots from here, Kelly. We are all just trying to do the best we can for our kids, our spouses, and (sometimes!) ourselves. We are all different so it follows that what we determine to be best, though trial and error a lot of times, will look different, too.

I find myself judging others SO much less the older I get......parenting is a hard gig no matter how you slice it and if someone has found a way that is working for her, I am on her side. Period.

Hugs and kisses! (stolen from Jenn )

Sally

[migirl]

I have to say, I have really enjoyed reading everyone's responses to the question at hand. I certainly don't pass judgement on anyone's decisions, since - as Kelly points out - each situation is unique and every decision is personal. What works for some obviously does not work for others. I was raised by a SAHM, while my husband's mother worked outside the home. I don't think I could say that one is better than the other, we both turned out OK (I think ). I have a tremendous amount of respect for all of you with children, it must be extraordinarily demanding. I love the insights you're all offering, in some ways I feel like what I'm reading here validates many things that I'm feeling about my own situation.

[DCJenn]

This is a topic that every couple I know stuggles with- from my parents to my brother and SIL and every one of my friends.

I know that part of the problem is that parenting is like any other experience, until you do it, you have no idea what it's like. My friend Leslie who is at home with a 3 week old baby told me last Saturday that she'd completely underestimated the time it takes to get the smallest things accomplished. She's a control freak and this is making her NUTS. I have no doubt that when her maternity leave is up, she will be very much looking forward to going back to work.

My SIL on the other hand was devastated that she had to go back, which is only softened by the fact that Jack is now at home with my brother who is taking leave. My brother also completely underestimated what happens when you're at home with a baby. He couldn't understand why Barb didn't have dinner on the table as he walked through the door. Now that it's his turn home with Jack- he's starting to get it.

My friend with the 3 kids had to go to work when her oldest was just 6 weeks old. Her husband was at USUHS and they cut the funding and she was the only income source. With the second, she had a part-time job and by the third, she was at home full-time. Now, she's going back to school to finish the Master's she started when she was pregnant with the first. She doesn't regret for a moment the time that she's been home with them but now that the youngest is in Kindergarten, she wants some "mom time".

My parent's choice to have my mom stay home with us was looked at quite differently because at the time, my mom had the more interesting and powerful job. (She translated Vietnamese for the National Security Agency- aka, she was a pseudo-spy) My grandmother told her that she was "stupid" for getting pregnant with me because she had just gotten a high powered raise. She still has moments but generally speaking was glad to have been able to stay at home with us.

I have no idea what my life will be like once we go get Stoli. I have a feeling that it's not going to be like anything I've imagined, anyway so it's almost pointless to try!

Jenn

[Flynn]

Very interesting....all of us have thought long and hard about what the "right choice" is for our specific situation.

While I think that being a SAHM is the right choice for me, I know it's not for everyone. Passing judgement is silly because nobody has complete insight into another person's life.

I would also agree with the thread that Kelly wrote about -- pertaining to where you came from. I think that has a lot to do with where you lean on this topic and/or what you are comfortable with.

As my husband has pointed out to me on many occasions, I grew up in "Beaver Cleaver land" where he is convinced I never experienced one bad feeling my whole childhood. While that is a huge overstatement, I am beginning to realize as an adult how "ideal" my childhood was. It's kind of scary actually. With that being said, "good" parents come in all shapes and sizes.

While I don't want to duplicate my childhood for my daughter, I would like to give her the safe haven I had, full of people who always had my best interests at heart. I knew I was a huge priority to my parents and I always felt loved even when I was getting punished.

So, regardless of our individual decisions regarding this topic, we all can agree that we want to make the most out of a difficult situation --- being married to someone whose time is rarely his/her own. In this regard we all are similar!

Flynn, I've got a LONG time before I have to make any decisions, but I definitely feel that being in a medical relationship, if not marriage yet, requires long term planning.

My current job, which I enjoy very much, would provide a good opportunity for flexible hours and working at home for a mother (we are small, so haven't actually encountered this yet). However, I know that it's unlikely that I'll be able to take advantage of that since BF and I are planning to move to the west coast eventually.

I think the decision for me will be less about whether or not to work and much more about whether or not to have children. I know bf wants them and I think I do too, but I know I have a ways to go before I feel committed to the idea of parenting. My parents were much like Kelly's and really gave everything to my sister and me. I know I'm not my mother and I really doubt my abilities to sacrifice my own desires for my children to that extent.

But, I feel that when the time comes (if it does), I'll be ready for my children to be the main focus of my life, and I think that I will want to stay home with them. And if I don't end up marrying bf and end up instead with a non-doctor, I think I would still want that (if it's financially feasible). Obviously, a lot can and will change, but that's what I think for now.