School advice needed:

[PrincessFiona]

I'm at a crossroads here with my daughter.

We are currently in the public school system. My son (5th grade) is in middle school and is having a fabulous, fabulous year after 3 lousy years. I worried obsessively about him before school started and now *knock on wood* don't really worry anymore at all...he's doing great.

Alex is in 1st grade and has gone from struggling at first because he was behind with reading to catching up completely...He's social, happy and his teacher thinks he's doing well. The only worry that i had with him was his interest in playing gamecube over reading...but I bought him a leapster and put away the gamecube and voila...problem solved.

So...here is my problem:

My daughter (4th grade) is really...really struggling. In a conference a couple of weeks ago, the teacher basically confirmed what I already know. Amanda is a very visual learner. They took a science test on some physics stuff that they learned in class by using lego blocks as models and Amanda got an A. She knew exactly what she was doing. The next two chapters though were not hands on...they were read it/hear about it/memorize it...and she bombed getting a *gulp* C and a D. *gulp gulp*.

Basically, the teacher told me that Amanda totally zones out when she is read to or lectured to in class.....and excels when they do manipulatives in math or do projects which involve doing artwork or using clay models etc to show things. She also has excellent reading comprehension scores for when she reads on her own....it's just the listening when read to that is a problem. The teacher has also already hinted about some ADD diagnosis without the 'hyperactivity'.

The problem, of course, is that standard educational practices from here on out do not encourage really a hands on approach. Not only that, they don't seem to encourage much academic creativity at all. Amanda is an avid writer...Every day after school, she writes for at least an hour...if not several. Her room is full of her 'books'...some of them good...some of them...not-so-good. Her teacher is very critical of her writing because she doesn't write the way she would like her to.

They have to journal about their day every day, for example. The teacher wants them to write about what they learned that day. Amanda journals 2-5 pages every day about what she was wearing, what the teacher was wearing, how the room smelled, who had gas, what they had for lunch, and..oh yah, they read Shiloh in language arts. She fills it with drawings too. I think it's creative...the teacher thinks that she rambles on and on.

But...I digress and have just rambled on myself...

I don't think Amanda can be successful in the traditional classroom setting right now. I asked her teacher to provide me a breakdown of the units they are working on and learning objectives for each so that we could put something together at home to supplement Amanda nad she told me she couldn't give me that.

I'm left pondering the Montessori charter school again. I got a call a few weeks ago that they had openings......It's a 45 minute drive one way....I'm seriously considering calling Monday to find out if the still have an opening for her and then going there with her to visit it...and maybe pulling her out of the school and driving her daily.

Thomas is totally opposed....so...but at this point, I don't care...I'm happy to do it behind his back . I feel like he is completely out-of-touch with the kid's school stuff. Example: Alex and Amanda forgot their lunch one day last week. He brought the lunches to the office on his way to work and didn't know their teacher's names The secretary had to look it up for him.

What do you guys think? 45 minutes one way is a heck of a lot of time on the roads every day....it just may be too much...but I just don't know what else to do to help my child......maybe Montessori wouldn't even be a good fit for her either???

I'll accept whatever you guys tell me.....just not my dh :>

[Meenah]

How about hiring a tutor who can provide visual learning experiences for her. I'm sure you could find one. It would be better than you driving that twice a day with other kids that need you and a new one on the way. Your absence because of the commute would impact everyone, especially you.
Luanne

[SuzySunshine]

Kris, since that one school is so far away are there any other options closer? Maybe not as good as that one but better than what she is in now??

[PrincessFiona]

There really are no other options in our area. That's the downside to living so far away from the 'big cities'. We have two expensive private religious schools whose curriculums do not differ from our public school and the charter school that we tried at the beginning of the school year.

The upside is that this montessori school is a 'charter' school...tuition free...the downside is definitley the drive..and the fact that my daughter has made it clear she wouldn't even consider it.

I'm game for coming up with projects at home, I just don't know how to do it with no overview of what she's really doing......

They had a science test this week and she brought home a review sheet....it was basically words/definitions for levers and pulleys....one definition after the next...that's it. I tried to quiz her and asked her to define one of the words and she told me "no...read the definitions and I'll pick the right word". nooooo.....I tried having her draw some and suggested that we build a lever...but she just didn't care anymore.

In short...I do feel stuck right now...hopefully something will come up to make this clearer for me.

kris

[SuzySunshine]

Kris, do they have a "gifted" program at her school? That is what they called it when I was school age, they may call it something different now. But those teachers are usually great at coming up with solutions for problems like this, even if they won't test her and consider her for the program maybe that teacher will help you with some ideas.

Good luck!

[Sheherezade]

I'm wondering if fourth grade isn't just a tough year for kids. My son is having trouble with the social stuff, Andrew had a bad year last year, now Amanda. I'm not sure that helps, but could it just be an adjustment year? I'd give it more time before going through the whole changing schools thing. It hasn't been that long. You still have more avenues at this school. If the teacher won't give you supplemental material or suggestions for helping, ask again. Then, ask the principal what you should do if there isn't any help forthcoming. Maybe the teacher just needs a nudge to come up with ideas. I don't think a new school is the logical next step. Unless you've been thinking about this for some time. Amanda only started having trouble recently, right?

[PrincessFiona]

So here's the decision...after much angst and indecision, I called the Montessori school here that Alex went to last year. They don't have an elemetary school program beyond Kindergarten, but their teachers are trained to teach up to 6th grade. They just haven't been able to secure enough community interest to invest in opening an elementary school.

Anyway, I spoke with the school director at length and explained the specific learning difficulties that Amanda is having...and asked if we could get one of the qualified teachers to tutor her.

So, as it stands, she is going to talk to 2 diff. teachers that she feels would be appropriate to see if they would be willing to do it 2 afternoons a week. They would try and cover what she's doing in school right now, but more importantly would address some of the problems that she's having in general.

ie..she is struggling with maps etc in geography...and though they would cover the areas of the world that she is currently working on, they would also start at the very beginning with mapping skills etc and work her up so that we can provide her a better foundation.

Then we can worry about helping her adjust to the 'regular' school teaching methods using her learning style. As it is now, she is simply memorizing facts that she needs to get by and does not have a deeper understanding of any concepts.

ie

"Mommy, is MN a country in North America?"

"MN is a state"

"So is MN a state in the country North America?"

She just...doesn't get it.

With math, it is a similar thing. She has all of her concepts memorized, but if she has to think beyond that, she can't. I understand that...I got an A in calculus simply by memorizing concepts...don't even ask me what a function is...

I had the opportunity to volunteer once a week (sometimes more) in the Montessori last year and their approach is very hands on...they integrate sensory skills to learn about countries etc...it's a totally diff. concept...that's why I think she'd do so well. They learn continents/countries/states/capitals etc in a very fun/tactile/use-your-hands/senses kind of a way....The 5 year olds leaving the Montessori program last year new more geography than my daughter does right now.



It's worth a try....this way we don't have to worry about traveling, she can get help in a low-stress, fun, hands-on environment...and I will feel like we're doing everything that we can in order to help her.

Kris

My fingers are crossed for you. I think that sounds like a good solution.

I have heard that Montessori has a lot of hands on map stuff in the cirriculum that kids really enjoy and learn a lot from. That would be a good fit for her!

[Meenah]

Good for you!!!
Luanne

[Phoebe]

Glad you worked out a solution. It sounds like a good one!

Jennifer

[Flynn]

Great solution! I was just going to suggest something close to this -- but you came up with the (seemingly --fingers crossed) perfect solution!

Kudos and keep us informed!

[Rapunzel]

I agree with Alison that life is basically a traditional learning classroom.

Ohhhhh, going off on a tangent: I think this is so completely incorrect. Our modern classroom environments are completely artificial and removed from the reality of the rest of the world. I wish, wish, wish that my mother had removed me from the "traditional" artificial classroom environment. It would have been quite beneficial to my own learning experience as well as giving me the chance to learn how to socialize outside of the artificial constructs of traditional American classrooms. Additionally, I believe childhood is too important a learning timeperiod to have it wasted with bad teachers. The best way for a child to learn how they learn best is with teachers who are willing to work with them as individuals - not as a part of "the herd". In other words, positive experiences enable learning much better than negative ones.

That is all- Carry on!

Jennifer

[planet]

school

Chiming in late here….

It sounds like you found a good way to go. Is it the norm though that a teacher can’t give you the curriculum? That strikes me as both strange and slightly undermining if you are trying to supplement your child’s learning. I don’t think I’d get it either if I were your daughter being taught in a disconnected rote manner. A friend from grade school had a huge world map on her dining room wall. The whole family would play a form of I Spy at dinner. Does the school even go over maps, the concepts behind geography? From your post it sounds like the tutors will be doing that. It seems like that should have been the first step in the classroom. I found some links to blank maps and lesson plans in case you were looking for some.

Good luck. I hope the tutoring helps. I’d sure like to hear what happens.

http://www.50states.com/maps/
http://geography.about.com/library/blank/blxindex.htm
http://interactive2.usgs.gov/learningwe ... psshow.htm
http://www.sln.org.uk/geography/visual.htm

[PrincessFiona]

Thanks for the links....

We were able to get a definite ok today on the Montessori stuff...and..the real kicker is that it will cost us the same amount of money for 2xweek montessori tutoring as it has been costing us for 1xweek math tutoring for her.

As to the modern classroom environment:

Unfortunately, I think it does mirror the 'real world',Jenn. All our lives we have to learn how to socialize, deal with people that we don't like, handle incompentent bosses or bullies etc etc. The reality is that the people in the classroom are the same people that you will be working with someday....and I agree that the best way for a child to learn is not with a bad teacher...and yet...we'll have bad 'teachers' at times throughout our life.

I'm not saying that I think this 'real world' is any good either. What I would give to have every day be a Montessori day for ME Instead, I have to deal with crazy neighbors, incompetent people fixing our windows for the 5th time, pediatricians that make me wait, people that gossip about me behind my back, bosses that are such arrogant jerks (despite incompetence) that I quit..etc etc...real life=junior high...

[Rapunzel]

Unfortunately, I think it does mirror the 'real world',Jenn. All our lives we have to learn how to socialize,

But, does the traditional classroom actually teach us "social" skills? Children are not to talk in class to one another, many schools now forbid talk during even lunchtime. Additionally, is a Lord of the Fly's scenario (ie where children make up the social pyramid) really the most appropriate scenario for the learning of proper social skills? Children learn how to "socialize" from the adults around them, obviously. If the only adult they are around during the day must divide his/her attention among two to three dozen other children how much actual proper social training will a child actually get from that adult? I'd say that the fact that our prisons are overcrowded with adults who went through the public school systems and never learned to interact appropriately in society speaks volumes as to the success rate of our modern classroom experience in "socializing" people.

deal with people that we don't like,

Well, I have two thoughts on this: 1) My children learn how to interact with others by watching me. They see how I interact even with those who have a lack of propriety and they learn from that. They are given an example (me) rather than thrown into the deep end of the pool with an entire group of children who also don't know how to act correctly around others. 2) If somebody is acting in a wildly inappropriate manner I know, as an adult, that I do not have to put up with such behavior. In an instutionalized classroom setting a child is given no opportunity really for recourse in such situations (Kris, your son had a classic example of this last year). Whereas adults have numerous means to conquer such situations (such as switching jobs, legal recourse, etc.).

handle incompentent bosses or bullies etc etc.

See the above. Additionally, too many people put up with incompetant bosses because they have been conditioned to do so by the public school/institutional education they received. The same unfortunate situation goes for bullying. If you've repeatedly been placed in a situation in which you are trapped with an incompetant boss or a bully then you will not learn how to socialize properly with others as much as you will learn how to avoid getting the tar beaten out of you or how to keep from being yelled at by a boss that doesn't know what he/she is doing. In society people should not encourage that behavior by giving it acceptance as "normal". Bullying and incompetance in one's given profession should be shunned and treated as abnormal rather than shrugging our shoulders and saying, "That's just the way it is."

The reality is that the people in the classroom are the same people that you will be working with someday.

Is it? I think it depends upon what your goals are in life. If you look at where the "average" school graduate ends up in life I'd say that's not the type of person my children will be working with someday if I have any influence at all on them.

...and I agree that the best way for a child to learn is not with a bad teacher...and yet...we'll have bad 'teachers' at times throughout our life.

Such as? I try very hard to surround myself with good examples (ie good teachers). I am trying to train my children to do likewise and shun the bad examples rather than be forced to embrace them.

I'm not saying that I think this 'real world' is any good either.

I think the real world of which you speak is only considered such because so many have been conditioned to believe that the crap they go through in most instutionalized educations was as good as it gets (or pretty close to it). Acceptance of the mundane or the out-right bad is not the real world - it's just surrender.

The fact is that my kids get to see how I deal with the negative things life throws at me. They also see how their father and other relatives and close friends deal with these issues. They learn from adults who love them dearly and provide the best examples they possibly can. It is a complete fallacy to say that one must go through a public school environment or one similar in order to learn how to interact properly in society. The school classroom as we know it is a recent invention having only been around for a little over a century. Prior to that most people learned at home, in tiny community-run classes or, for the rich and priveleged, from private tutors. The literacy rate in the United States before public education became the norm was in the 90th percentile.

I find the social experience found in a situation where a child must sit for hours on end in silence or near-silence surrounded by dozens of those born only within his exact same birthyear while a single adult dictates to them all what, when, and how they will do everything as entirely out of sync with the way society actually functions beyond the institution's walls. It's an appropriate experience for a robot perhaps, but not for producing a socialized individual with a good self-understanding.

Jennifer