For parents of Boys:

[DCJenn]

This was a fascinating article in the Washington Post on Sunday about how we are failing our boys in traditional settings much like we've failed the girls:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... ailarticle

I'm curious about reponses, as well. and of course we may need to move this to the debates!

Jenn H.

[PrincessFiona]

Great article, Jenn...

I really agree that one of the biggest problems is how we educate our children. First, the majority of elementary ed teachers are females and I think that there is more of a bias towards promoting the needs of the female students....even though many teachers I know would deny this. It seems like the male elementary school teachers that I have met all have one goal: becoming a principal/superintendant and not teaching...with one exception. My daughter had a wonderful teacher last year who was a man...and he was really exceptional. He had several little girls of his own and did well with the boys and girls in his classroom.

When Andrew was in 1st grade, it seemed like any 'problem' that he had "difficulty getting on his snow pants and zipping them, difficulty with tying his shoes, worrying about missing the bus" was reason for a 'meeting' with the administration. I had a social worker tell me without any doubt that he definitely had ADHD and needed medication...when I asked for specific proof of ADHD I was told "he can't get his snowpants zipped up" etc etc Again, I asked "no...what exactly does he do that indicates that he has ADHD?...is he disrupting the class? Is he rowdy? Is he struggling to pay attention?" The teacher interjected that Andrew actually had a good attention span...and the social worker and administration continued to push the ADHD thing....it boggled the mind. I gave the card back to them with a 'no thanks'.

That same year, a new student who was having some adjustment issues due to moving and a family situation was given the same spiel. The mom was forced to put the child on meds or was told that she would not be able to get his report card etc. She tried them and they made the child ill...he threw up, couldn't sleep and was very irritable. So...she told the school nurse that they were changing to the extended release capsule so that he wouldn't have to take the meds in school...and stopped giving them to him. At conferences, the teacher beamed on and on about the improvement in the child and how well the meds were working.

Here's a real zinger. I was talking with my son's 1st grade teacher and I mentioned to her that in a few years Aidan would be in her class. (Keep in mind, she's been over here on many occasions and has seen Aidan "live"...she thinks he's the busiest child she's ever seen. "it exhausts me just watching him".) She literally told me she didn't want him in her classroom if he didn't change.

We don't let little boys be little boys...boys are generally more active than little girls and they require more hands-on activities and time to unwind/run around.....Instead of honoring that....we put them on meds.

Oh...and a lot of parents aren't really very involved..it's easier to medicate than to take the time....

That was an interesting article, thanks Jenn.
Well, having been a boy in school, and having boys now...I can see many valid points.
It is a scary place when the teachers are the ones that are diagnosing and then "requesting" that children(mostly boys) be medicated for better behavior in the classrooms. When I was a kid, there was not one child in the class on medications for attention trouble. We still had PE and recess, and that pretty much did it. You went out, chased each other around until you were sweaty and tired, then you were happy to sit down in class. But today there is no time for that kind of activity, so kids get fidgety....or ADD/ADHD whatever they want to call it because they can't sit still.
I am not saying that some kids don't need it, because they may.
.....I have more to say, but no time...kids to take care of and studying to do....

[PrincessFiona]

Annie..that's what I told the mom.

Matt....isn't it crazy that the kids now get so little time for lunch/recess? We used to have recess after lunch and then again in the afternoon..and PE every day.

Our kids get PE 2 days one week/3 days the next and they get a 15 minute recess before a 15 minute lunch. Alex often complains that he didn't have time to finish eating...and he comes home and eats like a shark.

[fluffhead]

So...she told the school nurse that they were changing to the extended release capsule so that he wouldn't have to take the meds in school...and stopped giving them to him.

That rocks.

Regarding the article, good thoughts, though I don't know if it's about the schooling system. I think the male role models that are available to many boys show them the way towards menial labor, sports, or prison. The paradigm of schooling not being important for boys comes from the home, not from school.
It's something to think about, and yet another thing to worry about as a parent.

[fluffhead]

Here's something else that's interesting - see the "Man Jobs" thread.
So here you have a bunch of men who are GOOD at school, are intelligent, and are trying to build successful careers, but can't do the traditional "man" stuff, and we're STILL complaining about them.

[Vanquisher]

Here's something else that's interesting - see the "Man Jobs" thread.
So here you have a bunch of men who are GOOD at school, are intelligent, and are trying to build successful careers, but can't do the traditional "man" stuff, and we're STILL complaining about them.

Not sure how to take this. My post about "man jobs" was purely to reiterate that I need help and that I am struggling. My dh does a great job at helping at "woman jobs," but most of the time, I do both. I am merely frustrated, and I think I have a right to complain - maybe that's my problem.

[PrincessFiona]

See now, I have to second what Annie said. When I worked part-time for the last 3 years I was still expected to do all childrearing, homework, bedtime, bathtime, housework, cooking, cleaning etc. Just as traditional male stereotypes are slow to go...so are traditional female stereotypes. It goes both ways. When I finally told my dh to iron his own shirts he told me that he was not a woman...he wasn't born with the 'ironing gene"...so I told him neither was I...he now takes them to the cleaners. :>

Don't take the stereotypes too personally....we all love our dh's and of course our MrMDs around here...whom we put up on pedastals. We may complain about certain things that bug us...but I know plenty of men out there complaining about being 'nagged', etc etc. Of course, my dh isn't one of them :>

[fluffhead]

Heidi,
I absolutely didn't mean to rag on you for complaining. I am guilty of stereotyping as well, and I won't let my wife touch any of the man-jobs around the house. She would screw them up, and sometimes I like doing them (though spending 3 hours every Sunday laying insulation in the attic is getting on my nerves).
I'm only trying to say that maybe we're expecting every man to excel at everything, and it's not always fair. Not every man will be a bookworm as well as a mechanic. It works the other way too - not every woman is gonna be a rocket scientist and also a seamstress.
Sorry if I came off persnickety.

[Rapunzel]

I definitely agree with both Kris and Matt.

Something I wanted to point out is that certain fields in upper-level education are still mostly homogenous gender-wise. For instance, the fields of engineering and mathematics are generally going to be occupied by male students. Liberal arts colleges (predominantly things like literature, history, etc.) attract female students.

I wonder if this preponderance of female students in recent times occupying seats in universities and colleges has more to do with an overabundance of liberal arts schools. If you increase the number of liberal arts schools relative to the number of upper-level institutions as a whole of course you will end up with more female students than male. I'm just wondering if an increase in liberal arts programs has occurred because I'm fairly certain that such an increase would cause a dramatic shift in the predominant gender in college programs.

Taking the above into account, the fields that attract men are still more likely to land jobs that become "careers". By that I mean you're more likely to end up with a career from a biology degree than from a degree in English literature. Which means, to me, that even though more women are occupying seats in college lecture halls in the country more men are placing themselves into positions to actually earn an income.

Just another twist on the subject.

And, going back to what Kris and Matt were saying: I am more worried about what would happen to my son if he were in public school than I am about my most of my daughters (one of them is a unique, brilliant kinetic learner, however, and she really would struggle in a public school setting). I do wonder if there is a correlation between the decline in physical education and recess in institutionalized education and the rising (mis)use of drugs such as Ritalin.

Does anyone know why recess has been cut continuously shorter (into oblvion in many elementary schools I know of) through the years? After all, you don't fund recess so it can't be a money issue in the way cutting a music program would be!

Jennifer

[Rapunzel]

I guess my perspective stems from my own educational choices for my children but also from my father's experience as a teacher at a technical school. He teaches several subjects, one of which is air conditioning repair. Do you know how much someone who does that as a living makes in a hot place like Texas? $$$$ And, do you know how many women are in his classes? Zero. Yet, I'm sure you'd find a literature or history class at the college down the road packed with mostly women - who will not earn as much with their bachelor's degrees in history or literature as the air conditioning repair guy.

Jennifer

[Vanquisher]

Does anyone know why recess has been cut continuously shorter (into oblvion in many elementary schools I know of) through the years? After all, you don't fund recess so it can't be a money issue in the way cutting a music program would be!

It has nothing to do with money with a caveat- it has to do with the same reason there is more homework. Bringing up test scores and perceived gains in academics are to blame. The caveat about money is that schools get federal funds based on their test scores. So, I guess it is about money after all.

Schools tick me off lately. Normally, I am a huge propenent of education and especially public education as my parents are both teachers, but this just ticks me off.

They just want to make our kids into little robotrons. There is no time for play or being kids. Kids don't know how to play anymore, let alone play outside with other kids. They don't have time. It's scarf your food down so we can get back to class and take more tests! It's no wonder so many children are overweight or on ADD medication.

Kris, I can totaly relate to kids coming home hungry. My son is absolutely famished when he gets home from school to the point that I wonder if he ate at all at school.

[houseelf]

Stepping far away from the adult division of work conversation but happily engaging in the boys at risk conversation....

This topic has been on my mind for a long time. This is the single biggest reason why I desperately cling to private school even though our family honestly can NOT afford it. I seek a school that resonates with our family values while managing to both respect the needs of the child and ensure that he is getting the basics. I happened to find it in montessori this time, but I am very open to other good schools which are sensitive to this. There is a great school here based on the multiple intelligence theory which boasts this kind of learning too. Quite simply, not all kids fit into the model of education offered today.

DS's teacher, who is amazing, empathizes and embraces traditional boy energy. His report card euphemistically provides: "Cade has lots of energy and stamina". ( !) His day care provider reports that "Cade outplays every other kid in my care". ( !) This kid needs lots of outlets for his energy. I put him in swim lessons and a various other assortment of running around activities and he still keeps going.

On the plus side, he has become quite the ringleader about organizing sledding contests and soccer games at his school. On the other hand, I was dismayed when he was the ONLY kindergartner in the entire school who choose not to join the choir club after school.

His teacher gives him extra cleaning chores, which he loves because he is actively "doing". Further, she reaches my son and another similar classmate by setting up friendly competitions between them. (She admits that this is not a good way to reach other students, however). She reports that English lessons have to be presented in a way that reaches him: "Find the big, fat, hairy, ugly pig" ---an introduction to adjectives which has him engaged through humor. He gleefully retrieves the miniture pig and begs for more.

At home, he eagerly reads if it has anything to do with Spiderman, dueling, pirates, superheros, etc. The compulsive parent in me actually tried to read a broader spectrum at one point, but I learned that this was a battle not worth fighting. A trip to the play "dancing princesses" or a recitation of the story of "Black Beauty" merits loud sighs, disinterest, and professions of "boring". I definitely can see where my son's "boyish-ness" could be penalized in the wrong environment. I'm gonna fight like hell to work with him rather than against him.

Believe me, there are times when his boyishness needs reigned in, but that exceeds the scope of this conversation. My um...little angel's... antics can make me sooooo proud.

Anyhow, I couldn't agree more with Gurian. A child's energy needs harnessed and guided, not chastized. Work with the child, not against him. I'm not entirely sure that the system in place does this, with boys or any other child who can't exactly conform to the standard classroom. I do believe that boys, actually all of our children, are at risk and we as a society need to do something about it.

Obviously, this struck a passion within me.

Kelly

[fluffhead]

Regarding lunch -
I used to work with food service directors at several very large NJ school districts (at the time we were trying to get more farm fresh produce into the schools), and they ALL used to bemoan the short periods they had to serve lunch. The kids barely had time to stand on line, get their food, and sit down, before having to get back to class. Crowding in the schools, coupled with increased academic requirements, forced the kids to eat in shifts, and some classes were eating lunch at 10 AM and only having a 20 minute lunch.
Crazy.
This is recognized as a problem, but I don't know if anything is being done to solve it.
Add the unpleasant environment present in many school cafeterias, and you get kids coming home hungry.

[Sheherezade]

So I guess this is one thing my school system is doing right. We have a full 30 minutes of lunch followed by 40 minutes in recess - and gym for an hour 3 times a week. I suppose now I'll have to stop complaing about the sports-crazed culture.

I think waaaay too many boys are being "toned-down" medically these days. It makes me very glad I have a Ph.D in neuroscience with my focus on neural development. I can shut a teacher up in a few minutes when I start discussing the dangers of tinkering with kid's neurotransmitter levels. Just not something I'm going to do to make my kid (or any kid!) more convenient. (Of course, my kid's not the ADHD type. Maybe it's all that recess time?)

On the other side of the argument, I think we have all gotten too hung up on gender labels. There are girls that respond to a more active environment as well. (And boys that are bookworms.) Ideally, a school should have a small enough class side and enough staff to evaluate each child and provide a learning environment that works well for them. These differences in learning style are nothing compared to the differences seen between average children and children with autism - and yet we are making every effort to mainstream all special needs children. Can't we provide better solutions to children defined as "average" but existing along a spectrum? Regardless of sex or culture?