Enroll Child in Public School = Open Wallet Please

[PrincessFiona]

Of course...a good teacher is worth his/her weight in gold.

kris

Here in AZ they like to say, "we pay you in sunshine"

Oh my....

I'm not sure what teachers get paid here. I think the $49K figure would have to be with a lot of years and a master's degree.

You have a good plan for managing that, Tara. I think that program specific fundraisers/donations would be better as well.

It amazes me how much parents donate to our school foundation and the difference it makes. It puts the school at a distinct advantage but what that means for other schools is really sad.

This is the fundraiser we did at DD's preschool that I loved (yes, you can do some of this at Kinkos but this turns out better).
http://www.originalworks.com

Someday, I'll volunteer to do this at the school if they want me to. The school sold wreaths and garlands last year at a reasonable price. I'd do that again but they haven't decided whether to do it this year. I'd much rather have a wreath than another roll of $8 wrapping paper.

It does nickel and dime you, Jenn. I realized that when I balanced my checkbook last night. They like us to pay for field trips at the beginning of the year, plus the other requested stuff, plus Girl Scout sign up, plus....argh.

My step-mother was a teacher (mine, in fact) and I know she finished up making about $65K. She also had amazing benefits and an excellent retirement package -- and that was always was part of the $ trade off. (Hey - she got a husband, too!) But it does vary largely state by state. In our experience private school teachers always got paid worse than public.

I know they have a lot of out-of-pocket expenses, and I don't mind helping. I think I need to approach it more the way Tara does, and cut out the middle man crap. After all, an actual donation will always net the school more money then if I'm buying crappy wrapping paper. I think I've just been blown away by the one-after-another-without-a-moment-to-breathe (or get paid again) way it has happened.

Angie - you'd make an AMAZING middle-school science teacher -- get them before they've decided to hate science. Ohio has a better-than-average teachers union. Go for it!

[houseelf]

So many thoughts here:

Topic #1 . Public education is not free anymore. My BIL, a single father of three high school age teenagers, pays a school bus and activity fee for each after-school activity for each child. $40 fee for football plus $40 school bus fee. This is in addition to the cleats and other equipment my growing nephew needs each season. Then there are science lab fees, text book fees, in addition to the $165 a month to purchase school lunches for three kids. But that is not all, field trips (some to Washington D.C. and NYC), senior portraits, school dances, etc. are almost cost prohibitive to this blue collar family which receives no child support. (The reasons for his lack of c.s. exceed the scope of this conversation). Anyway, what astounds me about BIL's school situation is that he lives in an "above average" semi-affluent district.

Topic # 2-teacher pay. I regularly see divorce pleadings which list teacher's salaries at at least $40,000. (As an aside, truck drivers can make bank roll!) Back to topic. I have seen $59,000 and $55,000 for a teacher of 15-20 years experience. At least here in the Twin Cities, I don't think that the pay is too shabby considering the schedules. Further, I know of a handful of teachers who moonlight by tutoring or picking up a summer job. With this being said, I'm sure that many states do not pay teachers this well. Apparently, the pay is downright degrading in some states.

Topic #3- Don't even get me started about the current status of our public education system. The state of schools is downright apalling and would fail quickly in any open market. I have deeply passionate feelings about how this country fails its children and families every day. There is no way that the next generation will be equipped to compete at a global level. Personally, I fall to my knees and thank my lucky stars that we are able to choose a school because we are blessed with enough income to pay private school tuition. I have great compassion and empathy for the scores of individuals who must accept the unacceptable. I will probably have less children so that we can always keep the option of school choice open for our children, either via moving to a new district or by paying tuition.

I'm so passionate about the current status of education that I've often wondered if some sort of advocacy may be part of my life purpose on down the line. I can't believe people aren't organizing over this issue to effectuate the necessary change.

Kelly

[mommax3]

Don't even get me started on this one. That is a really high salary for 10 years of experience, Kris.....does she have her master's? My mom has 18 years and a master's + and I think doesn't quite make that much.

Think of what we are asking these people to do! It is next to impossible to take a class of 25 to 30 kids from a variety of different backgrounds and teach them well enough so that they can jump through the appropriate hoops by the end of the year, AND do all the administrative crap that the states are requiring of teachers these days.

This is my sixth year of teaching. I am making a half-time salary, but if I were full time, I would be making 36K BEFORE taxes, retirement, and health insurance premiums were taken out. I get 10 paid sick days, and 3 personal leave days. Also, teachers (at least in Indiana.....I know other states have similar requirements) are required to get six hours of graduate credit every five years. The first time I had to do this, it blew quite a hole in the small amount of money I was making at the time, and I ended up choosing my classes not according to my interests but according to what tuition was the cheapest.

As far as the nine/ten months comparison......teachers have no control over that. If you choose to be a teacher, that is just the way it is in most places. If we want the most qualified people to be teachers, we need to accept that the nine/ten month school year, while antiquated, is still the norm, and pay teachers comparably to other professionals.

I don't know too many teachers (although I *have* seen a few) who actually work *only* the stated contract hours, and I come from a long line of them in my family. Mostly, they come early, or stay late, or both....and I know lots of elementary teachers who spend hours at home grading and making things for their classrooms.

I think teaching provides a nice *second* income, but I would definitely like to see the salaries come up more so that more college students would consider careers as teachers.

Good call on the fundraisers......I do similar things. For Christmas, I would rather get (or contribute to getting) a teacher something they actually want/need for the classroom than look for a gift of some kind, which they probably won't like or want.

There is no slack in school budgets these days, that's for sure. I have been reeling ever since I found out that I have NO budget at my school.....all of my music (which is 1.60/copy at the cheapest, FYI) purchases and money to pay an accompanist for my concerts has to come out of whatever I take in in ticket sales at each concert we give. Yeah, there is music left over from other years, but the choirs have been reconfigured (I have two girls' choirs and one boys' choir) and all of the music in the past is for mixed choir.......and frankly, a lot of it is crap. I can't really fault the principal......I know he is squeezed financially.

Like Flynn said, there are layers upon layers of dysfunction at work in the public education system.

Sally

[Sheherezade]

I learned that here in Cleveland a new tax structure was recently passed for commercial property. It's a flat rate. According to our school district treasurer, that kills 5% of the annual operating costs of the district. Not good news - we will need a higher personal property tax levy to make up the shortfall. I find it funny that I never heard word one about this in the papers, though it has only recently taken effect. You'd think a new law that was going to take away 5% of school budgets would be a little unpopular with all the lip service "better schools" gets.....but I suppose we are in a corporations-first world view these days.

and so many commercial places are bailing on Cleveland, they're desperate to keep what they've got.

[Sheherezade]

Yeah...I get that. I'm not sure that taking more money away from schools is going to help. It's a unique plan. :>

I loved this:
http://www.janebluestein.com/articles/football.html

[PrincessFiona]

Sally,

She doesn't have her Masters....

It could just be that MN salaries are higher than the average. I've listened to a few complaints here recently from teachers and I guess I'm feeling a little cyncial. With my MS I was offered $1100/semester hour to teach....and I did it....but...I also had to invest a huge amount of time before/after school and with the prepping of labs. For a whopping $3300/semester before taxes I was expected to pony up. I was a part-timer, and I didn't get the same credits for the amount of time that I was teaching because it was a lab class...despite the fact that they ran for 2 1/2 hours, I was only given 1 credit hour/class (as opposed to a lecture course worth 3 credit hours that would meet roughly the exact same amount of time and pay for 3 credit hours).

That would be a *salary* of ~7000/year before taxes...It was a piddly amount and didn't include the time that I spent working with the TAs that was mandated by my position, etc etc.

So...I'm bitter


I love my children's teachers and I think that they have a very difficult job....I'm in awe of what they do. I couldn't do it.


Kris

[PrincessFiona]

Angie...that is an awesome little spoof...AND...having spent my last year of high school in Dallas TX, can I just say...that if they put as much emphasis on academics in TX as they do on football....they'd be #1 out of 50 states instead of at the bottom of the pile.

kris

I can only speak for my own sibling. But, she went to an absolute top college, she got a master's degree with a 3.9 G.P.A, and her entry level salary with two years in is 35k. It will go up over time but never that dramatically. I think she is underpaid and my opinion wouldn't change if she made 50k or 60k.

I would never point to teachers as an overpaid segment of society . . . there are too many people in business (often no post-graduate schooling if that is your marker for deserving higher pay) who make tons of money; I would even consider certain medical specialists to be better candidates for concerns of overpayment relative to value added/global wage structures than teachers!

As for the ten months per year, part-time argument, I would have agreed with you all prior to watching my poor sister. She is an extremely dedicated individual. She works at least ten hours per day, usually twelve at least five days a week, she usually grades papers over the weekend as well. I think she is on the upper end of hardworking teachers but there are alot out there like her. She is only given 30 minutes "prep" time per day which is not enough to come up with lesson plans for each lesson, create homework, grade homework and deal with administrative/parent issues. This more than compensates for the summer "off" - - when by the way she usually has to work for extra money.

Teachers are underpaid, though Kris you were even more underpaid . . .

Her day starts at 7.30am and she is out of the building by 2.45pm.

Well,I am a teacher and that is the first teacher I have ever heard of who doesn't come in early, stay late, work over the weekends, or plan lessons over the summer! There are days when I stayed at work until well past dark, and I wasn't the only one! When you consider all of the actual hours we work planning lessons, grading papers, etc we are very underpaid! We may get paid from 7:45 -2:45, but we work WAY more hours than that! My first year teaching I made $30,000. Then on top of that, myself and many other teachers are getting their masters at night or on the weekend so that we can make a few more thousand dollars a year.

I agree. Although I don't know as many teachers as a lot of people here do, I do have a number of friends who teach. Not one of them work 7:30am to 2:45pm. They all go early and stay late, and work over the weekends. I don't know if this is the case everywhere, but many (though not all) of my friends are also responsible for cleaning their own classrooms. Janitorial staff cuts mean that nothing is done unless its done by the teacher. Many of them have over 100 kids coming and going every day, resulting in a room that needs daily cleaning. Actually, one friend was spending an hour sweeping/mopping/washing chalkboards/cleaning sinks etc. in her room every day. She asked the principal if she could hire a cleaning service (out of her own pocket) to do clean her room, and the answer was no, because of the janitorial union.

Also, I know teachers get the summers 'off', but I've never known a teacher to not take classes or work at another job. I don't think I've ever seen a teacher take a summer off. Maybe that will change as my friends earn their masters and start to make a bit more.

[PrincessFiona]

I know many teachers who go in right before school starts and leave when the bell rings. That being said...maybe elementary ed is different than...secondary ed? Could that account for it?

Also, all of the teachers that I know who leave by 3 have school-aged children themselves at home. The teachers who work the longest hours are younger, newer and have no small children. The older teachers...are out the door usually too.

I'm certainly not arguing that teachers don't do a valuable job or that they don't take work home with them/work late etc.

But...people in other professions do the same.

Shella, taking another job to earn some extra money isn't a requirement and taking extra classes? So many other professionals do the same thing...on top of working...because they don't get summers off.

As for lesson-planning, etc in the summer. That may be true...but after a teacher has a few years experience, lesson planning probably won't take as much time/effort/energy and will be more enjoyable. The teacher I'm referring to spends almost the whole summer on cruises and at her cabin. I'm sure she does give lesson plans a thought...and even works on some. After 10 years of teaching 1st grade though, I can't imagine that she is making major lesson-plan changes.


Well, I don't want to argue this any more so I'll let it rest at that...it sounds like I don't value teachers, but I do. I just think that 45,000 for 8 1/2 months of work is pretty adequate ... I taught for 3 years and considered lesson planning/grading/office hours etc to be a part of the job. I never considered that I needed to be paid for those hours as well...But when I managed a store in College, I also spent unpaid hours cleaning out the stockroom, came in when a new employee needed an extra hand (unpaid) and did several other unpaid activities....I felt it was part of the job ...

If school was year-round, I'd lobby for teachers to make $65k year ....

Kris

[PrincessFiona]

Eh...I...am just bitter this week. Next week I will be leading the campaign to increase teacher salaries...stay tuned

Also, my experience is limited by my current situation in a smallish community....so I have lost touch with the real world.


I have to say though that my daughters 5th grade teacher (my son had her as well) deserves way way more than she gets. She is nothing short of fabulous!

I think it must vary a ton. By state, age of teacher, grade taught and so on. Most of my friends have no kids of their own and are just starting out, so like Kris said, they are probably the ones putting in a lot more work. They also all teach middle or high school. I don't know any elementary ed teachers, who are currently teaching, anyway. I know that in my MIL's case (she teaches at the middle school level), the subjects she teaches change every three or so years. She'll get into a routine teaching math and reading only to find out she will have social studies and science for the next 3-4 years. That's obviously much different than teaching elementary school kids.

I guess my experience is pretty limited as well.