Spanking

[migirl]

I know we've talked about this before, but I have a somewhat sensitive question about spanking.

The reason I'm asking is because lately Jack (2.5yo) has taken to running away from me and out into the street or parking lot. It always happens when we're getting ready to leave someplace. (Of course that's also when I happen to be paying the least amount of attention to him as I'm trying to round up his snack cup and sippy cup and the diaper bag ... oh, and the baby. ) He did it yesterday when we were leaving the park, he did it the day before when we were leaving playgroup at a friend's house, and several more times before that. I've tried explaining to him that he can't do that because it's dangerous and he has to wait for mommy, but obviously he's not getting the message because he continues to do it. Even when I'm screaming his name (and I mean, literally SCREAMING), he doesn't even acknowledge me and keeps right on going.

I was telling DH about it tonight and he thinks I just need to spank him. He thinks that all I need to do is just spank him once or twice, and that will really scare him enough to not want to run away like that again. Now, we've never spanked Jack before and I just ... feel uncomfortable about doing it. I understand the school of thought that it (spanking) just teaches violence and models the hitting behavior. BUT, I can totally understand the idea that dangerous situations like this might warrant a bigger action.

What do you think? Do you use spanking (or some other physical punishment) as a disciplinary tool?

Re: Spanking

My immediate thought is that if you aren't comfortable with spanking, don't do it (though in that situation it is reasonable, IMO). That does scare the daylights out of me -- my kids have done it too and it is much harder when you have a baby with you too. Have you thought about using one of those harness/leash sorts of things so he can't run off?

[mommax3]

Re: Spanking

We spank (not so much now) and I think it is a valuable parenting tool to be used sparingly. Absolutely appropriate for the situation you are describing, imo. It will get his attention more than it will hurt.....actually, it probably won't hurt at all if he is still wearing diapers.

Sally

[DCJenn]

Re: Spanking

I think in those "you will die if you don't listen to me RIGHT NOW" scenarios, we as parents have to do whatever we think is right both in the moment and immediately after to drill into them that what happened was not OK.

They are few and far between but that instant where you think your baby is in danger are the kind that I know (for me at least) I relive over and over and over. The what ifs can do you in.

All that to say, that I think it's an appropropriate response given the gravity of the situation.

Parent, as I have discovered, is sometimes making a choice between a bad thing, a horrible thing or an unfathomable choice. and we've all had to do it.

[Vanquisher]

Re: Spanking

I think there are other ways. I don't think spanking is ever appropriate. A firm no on his level - eye to eye followed by immediate punishment (time out for 2.5 minutes) followed by continuous conversations. I would also try to focus and direct his attention by giving him something to do. Carry this for mommy. Can you please hold my belt loop?

I have only ever spanked Alexia once, and Ryan never, and I regret it. It wasn't the right thing to do. She did not get the message, and all it did was make me feel horrible.

From supernanny.com:

Once your toddler or child can walk for any length of time, the prospect of him running off unsupervised can cause real anxiety.

Racing away on his own can quickly become a game for your child… and one worth playing as it usually ends with him getting a lot of attention. Your little one uses his newfound ability to walk as a way of establishing independence from you. At this stage of his development, it’s important you make it clear that running away is unacceptable behavior.

Tips to keep them close
Begin by explaining that you’re going on a fun walk and that your child will be free to walk by your side so long as he understands that when you raise your hand and say ‘stop’, he must stand still and return to your side. Engage your child in conversation the moment you’re out of the door; ask questions, see if he knows which way to go next and can tell you what to do when approaching a road. If your child runs ahead, hold up your hand and say ‘stop’. Praise him if he stays where he’s waiting for you to catch up or, better yet, he returns to your side. Start walking again, this time allowing your child to get a bit further away before you say stop. Build up his independence on your route in this way, praising him every time he reacts properly to your ‘stop’ command. If your child doesn’t stop, tell him they must hold either your hand or the handle of the stroller for a set time – maybe three or four minutes – and then start the technique over again. Knowing you can rely on your child to be obedient when you’re out and about not only keeps him much safer, it also gives you greater peace of mind and helps to establish a bond of trust between you.

Re: Spanking

I think in those "you will die if you don't listen to me RIGHT NOW" scenarios, we as parents have to do whatever we think is right both in the moment and immediately after to drill into them that what happened was not OK.

ITA.

I do spank my kids. DH has never done it, although he was also spanked as a child. For me, it was just part of their early training. At that point, they needed to know not to touch outlets, even if they were covered, so I taught what "no, don't touch" means by giving them a light slap on the hand. It doesn't hurt them, just surprises them. Now, we have a wood-burning stove in the house, and they walk by it saying, "no, no, no" without touching it. If I'm tired or overwhelmed, I don't discipline, period. I don't think spanking teaches violence at all. My siblings and I were spanked, and we'd hardly crush a bug.

I also use other forms of training or discipline, including distraction. If spanking isn't a form of discipline that you're comfortable with, you might try some of the other tactics first, if it doesn't put him in a dangerous position. As you said, running into the street is extremely unsafe, and it might be better to get the point across even if you have a little mommy guilt about it. It also depends on the child - what will spanking do to your relationship, especially if you haven't used it before? Will it just be shock and understanding of the seriousness of the situation, or will he feel personally insulted?

Just my :02:

[mommax3]

Re: Spanking

Our concern at that age was obedience, regardless of the situation, and all of our kids knew that flat-out disobedience was not allowed. The punishment was more often time out or something like that, not always spanking, but in situations where they were in danger, that was definitely on the table. I did do something like Heidi quoted, though.....we discussed at length (and practiced) that whenever I said their name followed by the word "no" in a certain tone of voice, they were to *immediately* stop what they were doing. Our practices got to be kind of a game (like freeze tag, almost) but it worked pretty well when I needed it to. Quite honestly, my oldest pushed the envelope WAY more than his younger brothers ever did (and still does!), so once I figured out what worked with him, I pretty much never needed the information again. :huh:

Those times when they are just running away from you while you are toting a baby in a carrier are the worst. I remember once when Luke (3) ran across a parking lot, straight towards a busy road. I had Joel, (six weeks old) in a carrier and no matter what I yelled (or how loud) he wouldn't stop. I finally put the carrier down on a sidewalk and sprinted. I can still see the whole thing in my mind.....it was so scary! I didn't spank him, but the fact that I ran and grabbed him made a HUGE impression on him. It was at that point that we started our "game".

[GrayMatterWife]

Re: Spanking

In general, DS is a pretty well-behaved kid. (We have no idea where he gets it--both DH and I were holy terrors as kids.) But there have been occasions to spank. And by spanking, I mean specifically: on the bottom, open-handed, and deliberately (not randomly swatting). We did not start spanking until he turned three. It seemed to us that he really couldn't appreciate cause-and-effect or have any sense of personal responsibility until then, so spanking would have been pointless as a corrective measure.

** Also, I don't think spanking models violence. Violence suggests uncontrolled physical destruction. At least the way I spank, there is nothing destructive about it. (If you're causing destruction to the child, then that's not spanking, anyway--that's just physical abuse.) The issue, I don't think is whether it is violent; the issue is whether you as a parent wish to incorporate physical punishment as part of your behavior modification methods. Some people aren't comfortable with that. They just don't like the idea of corporal punishment. To each his own, you know? My issue, personally, is that I am not comfortable with losing control and shreiking, berating, insulting, publicly humiliating, etc. It kills me to watch other parents do that. I just want to take the child in my arms and shield them.

Usually what happens with us is that DS is acting out in public and is not responsive to other corrective measures. When it becomes clear that he will not abandon his misbehavior, we tell him, "You've been warned and you've blown it. We are extremely disappointed and we will not allow this to continue. We are going home. On the way home, you may not talk. When we get home, you will go to your room and shut the door. Then you will be spanked." It works. It is always a very quiet car ride (or walk) home. He TOTALLY knows what's coming. And we immediately go home and do exactly what we've said we would. He can see the cause and effect in terms of his responsibility.

When we go into his room, we talk with him about his misbehavior and get him to state back to us what is his understanding of his infraction and why it was a problem (most often, it is because he is creating an "unsafe" situation--endangering himself or others--at school, they frame a lot of choices in terms of safety). And then we make him admit that he had opportunities to correct his behavior but didn't. Then we tell him that, as a punishment, he will be spanked. When we spank, we place him over the knee, pull down his pants and underwear to below his tushie cheeks, and smack about 3-5 times. We actually don't hit hard...by this time, we're calmed down and usually don't even want to be doing it. I don't think it's the stinging that upsets him; I think it's the humiliation and knowing that he's disappointed us.

It is effective for us: about 80% of the time that it comes down to us threatening to leave and spank him, he knows we're serious, we WILL do it, and he shapes up. The calmer I get, the more trouble he knows he's in!!

But, if I ever find myself WANTING to spank, I don't. To me, that is my internal signal that I am too angry and the spanking will be more out of my personal frustration that for behavioral correction.

I did slap DS in the face once. He was about 3-1/2 and was being just absolutely AWFUL about eating dinner one night. Very belligerent. When I bent down to speak to him, eye-to-eye, he spit a whole mouth full of pasta and sauce all over my face and said, "Ha ha, Mom! I don't like it!" He NEVER acts like that! I was so shocked that I slapped him across the face. Pretty hard, too--or at least harder than I meant to, even as I was doing it. It didn't leave red finger welts, but his cheek turned pink. He was so stunned he didn't even do anything other than grab his cheek. I was so stunned that I told him I was too angry to talk with him and that he should leave the table and go to his room...which he gladly did (and then started to cry, more out of emotion than pain, I think). I felt so terrible. Really, really awful. So I waited a little while and then went into his room and did hugs. He said he was sorry for spitting at me, and came out and ate the stupid pasta, and I decided that for dinner the next night, we were having something safe, like PB&J.

BUT, IN THE END, DON'T DO IT IF YOU'RE NOT COMFORTABLE WITH IT!! I don't adopt behavior modification techniques that I'm not comfortable with!

Re: Spanking

What always worked for us was to say, "if you refuse to hold my hand I will have to carry you".

I had good luck with this too, that or holding their hand or arm firmly and leading them to the car.

Your post has had me thinking all day about those nerve-wracking moments!

Re: Spanking

Yikes! Those heart-stopping situations are always so scary. What Tara suggested has also worked well for us. I also do what Heidi suggested.....I either engage DS in conversation or give him "jobs" to do so that his attention is focused on me.

Re: Spanking

I have a little feisty toddler, too. Hugs. Triying to manage a toddler and a baby has been overwhelming to me.

I don't think spanking is useful in this situation either. Especially if you aren't comfortable with it. The times that I have seen parents spank their kids in running away/parking lot situations, it seems as if the parents whacks the kid out of complete and utter fear (understandably!!!) but what is the kid really learning? That is why I have trouble with spanking. . .it just seems that all that is learned is "if I cross the street without Mommy, I get a spanking" (because again, we are talking about a 2-2.5 year old brain). I think the discipline should be tied to the 'crime' in some way. You cross the street without Mommy? It is stroller city for you, baby. (Or baby in the stroller and you hold the toddler's arm with a VERY tight grip). This *usually* works for my toddler.

[DCJenn]

Re: Spanking

The day that we 'lost' Nikolai (he knew where he was, he just neglected to tell us...compelling my husband and I to go into panic mode) as we were walking to the car, I had such an iron fisted grip on his wrist that I'm sure I left one hell of a handprint on his arm. Probably bruises. Didn't care- I wasn't going to let him out of my grip for days after that. My poor husband was incapable of coherent thought for a few hours.

I have NEVER been so terrified in my life.

Toddlers are the worst though- he nearly decapitated himself while running into the dog leash while attempting to run into the street. Yeah, that was fun.

Jenn

[MDPhDWife]

Re: Spanking

We have spanked our children, but it's a rare situation. More often than not they get a stern look, a talk, and then time out. Not always in that order. Sometimes if they are out of control, they go to time out first and then we'll talk.

In this situation, because you have a younger one, I would consider one of those leash things. We had one that we only used in Disney World because I was absolutely terrified with all the stimulation of losing the kids.

Lots of hugs because I know how scary that situation is.

[peggyfromwastate]

Re: Spanking

Our younger children have tried the running off thing when they were around 2.5 also. What always worked for us was to say, "if you refuse to hold my hand I will have to carry you". They want independence so bad that being carried is just horrific for them. Yes, it is hard for you as there will be some struggle and baby will have to be in a stroller but after a few carries you will be able to transition back to hand holding etc. I'm not against spanking but I just don't think it's necessary in this case, especially if you are uncomfortable with it.

This is what I did too-- holding them like a sack of potatoes, basically. It's not fun for them, but if that's the only way to be safe... They HATED it, and usually I could hold their hands (or wrists if necessary) after only about 10 feet of the sack of potatoes routine.

I also give the kids something specific to hold on to, or a job as suggested earlier. (help me hold the car seat, etc.) I also tell them how I expect them to walk with me and the consequence before we leave the store, the car, anywhere. I constantly tell them exactly where to stand-- like when I have to gather junk I say, "stand next to the tire of the car" or whatever.

When I've observed other kids running out in the parking lots, etc., what I've seen is sheer terror on their faces when the mom runs after them and catches them like a crazed maniac. This happened the other day in a virtually empty parking garage where I was talking to a mom I knew, and her 3 year old got out of the car and ran towards her across part of the parking garage. The mom ran at her to catch her and stop her, and the daughter was so shocked at the big reaction. She seemed to get that this wasn't a game... And Mom was NOT happy to see her get out of the car. Maybe you can find a deserted parking lot to practice parking lot safety sometime so that he knows exactly what his expectations are?

[alison]

Re: Spanking

I was at a Nordstrom once, when a mom yelled out that she couldn't find her child. She was in hysterics. They locked all the doors leading to the mall and to the outside and called a "Code Anthony" over the intercom. The mom ran around the store screaming her child's name. My heart stopped for her. It was gut-wrenchingly terrible.

The boy finally came out from somewhere, the mom hugged and kissed him, and then proceeded to slap the bejeezus out of him.

Holy moly.