Help!

[Mrs. MD, Esq.]

My dad and my uncle opened the window of a neighbor, put a hose through, and turned it on. While the neighbors were on vacation. For DAYS.

[SoonerTexan]

^ Holy crap

Tonight N and I had to kill 2.5 hours in a little shopping and restaurant area downtown while DH went to a pre-interview dinner. With 30 min to go, she was tired of being in the stroller so I let her out to play in a little grassy area. She kept running away and wouldn't listen. I was losing my mind trying on keep up with her and didn't want leave the stroller alone either. At one point she was in my sight but go further away than I was comfortable with and started going toward the street. I screamed at her and starting running like hell. She was halfway in the middle of the street before I got to her, hysterically screaming. We were so lucky there were no cars. It would have been over. I'm still a little traumatized by it.

I don't think she is as active or mischievous (ad I'm not saying they are bad, they're just boys) as your boys, and though she is probably as big, you are a smaller woman than me and just as pregnant! My point is, I don't know how you do it, but you are, and I think you are doing a good job. That doesn't stop it from being frustrating and hard, but know I really think you are rocking it.

[Pollyanna]

It's so hard to make suggestions for other children because they are all so different. I will say thought that stickers/marbles/etc sound nice in theory but all they do is make "not behaving" an option. I don't like rewards for things that are expected (in my next life I'm writing a book titled, "you don't get rewarded for breathing"). Atta boys are a bit different as they can be matter of dactyl peppered through your day ("thank you K1 for being such a help to mommy and getting in your car seat" ). As you can see with the glass, it starts out great but the novelty wears off and kind behavior becomes an option.

Your boys are bright and I think pretty sensitive from how you describe them. I would stop the stickers and rewards and simply live. Talk to K1 on your next date about how you need his help and you know he will do it. Explain that superhero paint will be scheduled randomly because it's fun to do together. Talk about how fun it is to go places with such a respectful and well behaved boy and how neat it is when strangers recognize how great the boys are. They will internalize those comments and start following through. Then keep on doing what you're doing by keeping all play areas safe. That allows you such peace because you don't have to run around saying "no". And avoid places where you know they aren't ready for, or modify the visits. I find manipulating their world where nearly everything is a "yes" (but not at all in a permissive way) really relaxes the child because they aren't trying to "get away" with stuff, they can just be their super inquisitive selves.

[alison]

One foot in front of the other...

I am master of guilt-tripping:

"M, do the right thing."
"M, I will be very disappointed."
"M, you are old enough and smart enough to do xyz instead."

I only have one though, and she mostly mindf*cks me versus acting out in a physical way.

[HouseofWool]

One foot in front of the other...

I am master of guilt-tripping:

"M, do the right thing."
"M, I will be very disappointed."
"M, you are old enough and smart enough to do xyz instead."

I only have one though, and she mostly mindf*cks me versus acting out in a physical way.

Not guilt tripping - what you are saying is pretty much what Tara said. I often add in crap like - "if you don't behave like a big girl, you will get treated like a little girl and that means, naps, no playing on the Wii, or going to the park. It is your choice, but I think it would be more fun if you help out for a bit so we can all have fun together." THAT is guilt tripping!

And at 3, K1 is definitely old enough to start internalizing some of this stuff, even if impulse control lags a bit.

I would lay it out rationally for both boys. "Lambie will be here soon and I know all of us are looking forward to meeting her. As she gets bigger in my tummy, it is harder for Mommy to pick you boys up and carry you. This means that I need you to help me out by behaving like the big boys I know you are." Then I would calmly lay out the expectations of what you need for them to do over the next 30 minutes or so. "We are going to go to the store so we can get food for dinner. You will get in to your car seats nicely and I will help you buckle up. When we get to the store, I expect that you will ride nicely together. I know you can do it because you are kind and smart" blahblahblah. But, keep the expectations for the immediate future and reiterate the expected behavior in the store when you get there, before you have unbuckled them. Then if they act up at the store - I remind them that I *KNOW* they can do it because they did it on such and such an occasion.

Are they in a 5 point harness yet or has K1 graduated to a backed booster? If he is in a booster, can Houdini try to buckle himself as an incentive?

[MrsK]

It's so hard to make suggestions for other children because they are all so different. I will say thought that stickers/marbles/etc sound nice in theory but all they do is make "not behaving" an option. I don't like rewards for things that are expected (in my next life I'm writing a book titled, "you don't get rewarded for breathing"). Atta boys are a bit different as they can be matter of dactyl peppered through your day ("thank you K1 for being such a help to mommy and getting in your car seat" ). As you can see with the glass, it starts out great but the novelty wears off and kind behavior becomes an option.

Your boys are bright and I think pretty sensitive from how you describe them. I would stop the stickers and rewards and simply live. Talk to K1 on your next date about how you need his help and you know he will do it. Explain that superhero paint will be scheduled randomly because it's fun to do together. Talk about how fun it is to go places with such a respectful and well behaved boy and how neat it is when strangers recognize how great the boys are. They will internalize those comments and start following through. Then keep on doing what you're doing by keeping all play areas safe. That allows you such peace because you don't have to run around saying "no". And avoid places where you know they aren't ready for, or modify the visits. I find manipulating their world where nearly everything is a "yes" (but not at all in a permissive way) really relaxes the child because they aren't trying to "get away" with stuff, they can just be their super inquisitive selves.

This has always been my thought too. I believe in authoritative, affectionate parenting; rewards are earned and I want my children to appreciate the great privilege in which they live (including nice clothes, regular meals, a comfortable home, parents who cherish them, good health -- so many children don't even have clean water or beds to sleep in and my children are so fortunate). I absolutely hate bribing them with M&Ms, stickers, rocks in jars, etc. I don't believe that just being decent deserves an "atta boy". And I go bananas when K2, for instance, cooperates during a diaper change and then announces, "I want a rock!" It shouldn't be a bargain; he should just do it. Still, every time I present our discipline issues to teachers/pediatricians/psychologists/social workers, etc. They all say the same thing. Reward good behaviours, ignore bad behaviours, give tangible/visible rewards, etc. Seems to me, this system of rewarding every positive action is very popular now. Ultimately, once a behaviour is learned (after about 3-4 weeks), the reward is supposed to be transferred to another desirable behaviour. So, you aren't disbursing M&Ms every time the kid poops into his teens. Or, the marble jar gets bigger so the rewards are harder to accumulate. This week, I was very liberal with the rocks because I wanted them to see them accumulate quickly and I wanted K2 to see how the bigger reward is earned.

As for as our rock system has gone, I have seen an improvement with K1. He is eagerly dressing himself, putting on his shoes and coat when I say it's time to go, and getting into the car. He's also gently correcting K2's behaviour which is the best case scenario. K1 has more influence with K2 than I do at this point (and I suspect he always will). K2 will do almost anything for K1's approval so it is a big help if K1 gently tells him, "Don't throw that toy. Let me show you how to play with it" rather than getting drawn into to the roughhousing or just lashing out at his brother. They earned the last rock this morning. I guess I'll be painting 20 little toenails blue this afternoon. I told them that superhero toes are on the schedule for after naps today; but, they've earned this privilege and it can be revoked if they don't behave during lunch and naptime. I'm on my way to pick them up shortly. Let's see how it goes. Meanwhile, I'm so preggo-tired today that I'll just go insane if they don't cooperate through lunch and naptime. I forced myself to go to the grocery store while they are at school because DrK is on call this weekend and I didn't want to attempt the shopping with the boys. However, now Momma needs a nap.

[MrsK]

Not guilt tripping - what you are saying is pretty much what Tara said. I often add in crap like - "if you don't behave like a big girl, you will get treated like a little girl and that means, naps, no playing on the Wii, or going to the park. It is your choice, but I think it would be more fun if you help out for a bit so we can all have fun together." THAT is guilt tripping!

And at 3, K1 is definitely old enough to start internalizing some of this stuff, even if impulse control lags a bit.

I would lay it out rationally for both boys. "Lambie will be here soon and I know all of us are looking forward to meeting her. As she gets bigger in my tummy, it is harder for Mommy to pick you boys up and carry you. This means that I need you to help me out by behaving like the big boys I know you are." Then I would calmly lay out the expectations of what you need for them to do over the next 30 minutes or so. "We are going to go to the store so we can get food for dinner. You will get in to your car seats nicely and I will help you buckle up. When we get to the store, I expect that you will ride nicely together. I know you can do it because you are kind and smart" blahblahblah. But, keep the expectations for the immediate future and reiterate the expected behavior in the store when you get there, before you have unbuckled them. Then if they act up at the store - I remind them that I *KNOW* they can do it because they did it on such and such an occasion.

Are they in a 5 point harness yet or has K1 graduated to a backed booster? If he is in a booster, can Houdini try to buckle himself as an incentive?

K1 is still in the 5-point harness/convertible carseat. It fits up to 70lbs. (Mental note, I have to check the height.) He can buckle the top buckle and we've been talking about learning to buckle himself before Lambie comes. He's excited about the baby and I can reason with him like you described above. He'll also tell me things like, that he was put in time out at school yesterday and it was so embarrassing. Then we can talk about how he can do differently next time to avoid the embarrassment of time out at school. He likes the idea of having additional privileges and responsibilities when the baby arrives. K2, on the other hand. . . Ugh! While he asserts that he's a "Big Boy", he's still insisting that *he's* the baby, asking to be picked up or to nurse, and he's feeling really ambivalent about the arrival of his baby sister. We're working on it.

[HouseofWool]

K1 is still in the 5-point harness/convertible carseat. It fits up to 70lbs. (Mental note, I have to check the height.) He can buckle the top buckle and we've been talking about learning to buckle himself before Lambie comes. He's excited about the baby and I can reason with him like you described above. He'll also tell me things like, that he was put in time out at school yesterday and it was so embarrassing. Then we can talk about how he can do differently next time to avoid the embarrassment of time out at school. He likes the idea of having additional privileges and responsibilities when the baby arrives. K2, on the other hand. . . Ugh! While he asserts that he's a "Big Boy", he's still insisting that *he's* the baby, asking to be picked up or to nurse, and he's feeling really ambivalent about the arrival of his baby sister. We're working on it.

I would try co-opting K1 to guilt trip K2. "Ya know K1, K2 thinks everything you do is pretty cool - lets see if between the two of us we can get him to do xyz". If you make it conspiratorial, he might just eat it up!

And K2's ambivalence seems perfectly normal. I would talk to death what the expectations will be for the first few weeks post partum. Mommy is going to have an owie on her tummy and that means that I won't be able to pick up anybody but Lambie because the doctor said so (blame the OB). BUT, I promise that I will be able to snuggle with you on the couch and we will still be able to read stories with just you and your brother while she sleeps."

[Pollyanna]

Not all kids are interested in becoming the "big boy". I typically avoid that talk with the children that are bothered by it and focus instead on how even when they are 55 years old they'll still be my baby no matter what. Some of my olders needed to sit on my lap while nursed or rocked the new baby. This didn't last long but it really allowed them to feel comfortable in their position in my heart and was soooo much easier for me (I'm all about the path of least resistance, lol).

FYI: I think those professionals that are into the reward system see it in theory but may not realize that in practice it's a big old pita for mom and not really more helpful than carefully placed words and plans.

[Michele]

Phedre (3y small build) can buckle herself in her Boulevard car seat. The boys could do thier own at around 2.5y. Of course, this means they could UNBUCKLE at that age as well....and I remember posting here when Daegan unbuckled himself and opened the car door while I was driving on the highway. Yeah...childlocks engaged after that.

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

Re: the reward system. Pretty much every study done has concluded that external rewards have extremely limited value and do not garner any intrinsic motivation towards cooperation. It's frustrating that you keep being given that advice despite evidence that it's ineffective.

I agree with getting K1 involved and constantly setting expectations. Obviously D is younger than either Kbrother but I've found if I start situations with "we are going to do x and then y. Do you understand? Please say "Ok Mommy"" and then getting "Ok, Mommy", I'm getting better results. Then I freak out in happiness when she complies and tell Daddy when we FaceTime at night how good she was allllll day, etc.

[MrsK]

Today has been rough. DrK is on call. Last night, I talked with the boys at length about the fun stuff we could do together today if they were well behaved. They were good this morning so first up, I was going to take them to a halloween puppet show that was advertised for one of the more obscure county library locations. The weather was nice and I was enjoying the drive but then when we arrived, no library. Just a pile of rubble and a bulldozer. So, trying to be chipper, I told them that I had another fun thing planned (local grocery store having a superhero event). I got back on the interstate and I'm in the middle of nowhere when K2 starts this really shrill pain-cry and throws up. Ugh. Poor kid was miserable and preggo-sick momma was trying not to wretch while cleaning him up. K1 kept asking if I was sick too and he was a big help in offering his coat for K2 to wear home since momma forgot to pack an outfit in the diaper bag after the last time we used it.

So, we had to abandon all our fun plans and get everyone home. After some toast and gatoraide, K2 perked up big time. Now the two of them are back to making mischief -- K2 playing in the toilet; K1 spitting in my face -- and I'm infuriated. Hopefully, I'll be able to get them out of here after naps and we'll all be in better moods. I really feel like I screw up big time when I let them get under my skin. But, gosh, what can be more provocative than spitting in my face?

[MrsK]

I agree with getting K1 involved and constantly setting expectations. Obviously D is younger than either Kbrother but I've found if I start situations with "we are going to do x and then y. Do you understand? Please say "Ok Mommy"" and then getting "Ok, Mommy", I'm getting better results. Then I freak out in happiness when she complies and tell Daddy when we FaceTime at night how good she was allllll day, etc.

We do this too. "We are going to X. Let's talk about how we behave there. Do we do X? Yes! Do we do Y? No!. . . " It does help.

Drat. They are up from their naps and have escaped from their room only 15 minutes after I put them down.

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

Oh yeah, it only works sometimes. I've read that 60% compliance is truly excellent for a toddler so I've tried to lower my expectations.

But we had a horrendous end of the Halloween Party we went to yesterday. Screaming for Raffi in the car, screaming for it to be turned off, turned it off, screaming for it again, when I ask if she wants it, screaming NO, screaming when I don't turn it on and so on. DH calls in the middle of all this and when I ask her why she's crying in an angry tone, he dares to criticize my tone. He nearly lost all appendages thru the phone, including his balls. Not my finest moment.

Is there any way to have them nap separately? At different times? Or whoever behaves gets to watch a movie during nap time or something? Gets to nap in Mamas bed? I just feel like you need a break and separating them might help? What about keeping K1 out for quiet time and letting K2 nap?


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[MrsK]

DH calls in the middle of all this and when I ask her why she's crying in an angry tone, he dares to criticize my tone. He nearly lost all appendages thru the phone, including his balls. Not my finest moment.

Yeah. Story of my life.

Just now. . . DrK has been on call and apart from us all weekend. Today was as close to perfect as it could get with the K Bros. They woke up in good moods, promptly got out of our bed where they had piled themselves when they woke up and got dressed when I mentioned "pancakes", ate nicely, then we went to a friend's house. (My friend has two boys 18 mo apart and a girl 30 mo younger, exactly the same sibling distances/genders we will have. But her kids are about 2 years older than mine. So, her oldest boy is about 2 years older than K1, the middle boy is 2 years older than K2, the daughter will be about 2 years older than Lambie. So, they totally get the it's-like-parenting-two-golden-retriever-pups dynamic.) Anyway, our boys played and my friend, who is a barber, cut the boys' hair. Then we had snacks and discussed our options for the day.

I mentioned an antique show that I would have liked to see but really didn't think the boys could handle it. We (the boys and I) debated and discussed and talked about options for the boys later in the day and they insisted that they wanted to go to the antique show. To my utter delight, they were wonderful at the antique show. They quietly rode in the double stroller, enjoyed looking at all the pretty things and talking about what they saw, collected tons of snacks and kudos from the antique vendors. It was amazing. I rewarded them with a trip to McDonalds w/ playzone after.

Then, when we got home for naps, everything feel apart. Daddy was home, the boys wouldn't sleep. They figured out how to circumvent the door locks and are somehow opening doors without unlocking them. () They ran around like banshees while daddy dozed on the sofa. I gave up on naps and put them in the playroom. I sat down at the kitchen table and I could hear them conspiring, "No, wait, hold that right there. No, right there. Okay, steady. . . " Then, by the time I got up from the table, silence except for footsteps running through the house. They had stacked up the little chairs in their playroom so that K1 could climb over the gate, damaging the gate and the chairs in the process. I scolded K1, told him that he or K2 could have been hurt, and told K1 that he had to go in time out. He refused. I told him 4 minutes would be increased to 5 if he did not go in time out. He's negotiating, crying, yelling, etc. I'm increasing time. I'm up to 15 minutes and he still will not go and I cannot move him.

Finally, I call DrK to help me having just last night discussed with him about how we need to present a united front and enforce consequences for bad behaviour. DrK is pissed that I'm disturbing his rest, claims that he is injured (sore Achilles tendon) and cannot help me. He's actually yelling at me for asking him to help discipline his children. So I say to him, "Should we just give up then? Let them burn the house down? Regardless of our own exhaustion or physical limitations, we have to parent and we should be helping each other. Yelling at me is not presenting a united front." So, then he starts offering to take K1 out on an errand with him -- avoiding the time out/consequence that I have already decided and rewarding naughty behaviour. I had to really hold my guns to get DrK to help me enforce the time out, which K1 eventually did complete.

Sometimes it's as difficult to get the adults around me (DrK and grandparents included) to stay with the program as it is to get the boys to do so.

Is there any way to have them nap separately? At different times? Or whoever behaves gets to watch a movie during nap time or something? Gets to nap in Mamas bed? I just feel like you need a break and separating them might help? What about keeping K1 out for quiet time and letting K2 nap?

I've been thinking of moving K1's bed into Lambie's room. He really doesn't want to share with her but he's less likely to mess with her than K2 is. Most days, they both fall asleep in the car on the way home from preschool. I can rouse K1 enough to get him to amble up to his room, take off his shoes, and get in bed. I carry K2 in and let him sleep on a pillow and blanket in our living room. (This is getting to be very difficult for me to do but he is impossible to wake just a little. If he's woken, he does not go back to sleep.) The days that it's bad are like today where neither of them were asleep in the car. Separating them helps and often K2 decides that he *wants* to sleep on the floor in our hallway. If K1 truly isn't going to nap, I've taken him out and put him in the playroom to play quietly while K2 naps. Just now, they've added a new element with breaking out of their room or the playroom.