Stubborness in preschoolers

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

How do you like that for a title...yeah, I know they're ALL stubborn.

But I want the collective wisdom of the MSN for this one.

So in an attempt to reduce battles, I've tried to be more neutral with C and let her have more agency in her choices while at the same time not being a complete pushover. Which leads to my problem.

-Last night at dinner, I served ravioli with red sauce (she's never had it before, it's not a typical meal for us) and she didn't like it. D loved it and wolfed it down but C began whining and complaining almost immediately. I stayed completely neutral, "that's fine honey, you don't need to eat it if you don't want to, you can go get ready for bath" - I'm not offering to cook her another meal when she refuses a single bite (she likes regular pasta and red sauce so this was hardly a stretch). She pouted and screamed and cried through the whole thing. I kept saying she didn't have to eat it in a calm voice, etc. But she wouldn't stop because she wanted dessert (yes, I've continued with a small dessert just because). I clearly couldn't be like, "well fine you can have dessert after eating no dinner" so I just stayed completely neutral, "C, I understand you don't like it, I won't serve it again to you but that's what is for dinner tonight and the kitchen closes in [diminishing time] because we need to move on to bath". After an HOUR, she finally choked it down (3 pieces of large ravioli which was all I'd put on her plate) and got dessert.

-This morning, she's lying on the floor in her coat but won't go to the car. I get her to stand up (our nanny is trying to load into the car) and ask, "are you not feeling well? do you need to stay home from school today" (again, neutral tone, I was actually proud of myself for staying calm) And she freaked out and was like, "No, NO, I want to go to school". Ok, no problem, then head out to the car. She's sobbing and whining as she goes down the steps. I made her come back inside for a private chat -- "Are you ok? Do you feel poorly? Do you need something? Do you want to stay home" (not rapid fire but I did ask all those things). She kept saying she wanted to go to school but kept crying and whining. WTH. And to be clear, I'm 100% positive that she LOVES school, she was just acting weird today.

I'm at my wits end. I'm trying to stay calm. I offer her an out/another option but she WILL NOT TAKE IT. But she wants to fuss and cry the whole time. I don't understand. And I'm confused with what to do. Do I just let her whine and scream and carry on with no options? Or continue offering options?

We cannot spend an hour at dinner every night (D was going nuts in her highchair) nor will I send a sobbing child to school every day.

[Thirteen]

Stubborness in preschoolers

Oy. You sound like me from age 3-4 with DS1. Here's what I did...

Eventually, I stopped offering choices, and just presented what was my choice. I also had many instances where I wordlessly picked him up and carried him to the car/his room/the bath, etc.
If I felt like it, sometimes I would say things like "You must need my help.", or "I have to take care of you/keep you safe, etc."

Lots of "I'm sorry you are sad/upset/angry." and "You must trust me."
If he physically tried to fight me, I held him in such a way to protect my body, and would exclaim "If you continue, I might drop you and then you will be very hurt and cry."

I kept a set of clothing in the car for days where he refused to get dressed, and set a timer. That way, the timer is the bad guy and I just carried out my instructions.
This also works for a time frame for meals -- you could set it for 30 minutes, an hour, and explain that when the timer sounds, the table will be cleared and your kitchen will be closed. (This still sometimes happens at our house. He refused dinner last night, and asked about it later. I assured him that breakfast would be served in the morning.)
"When the timer goes off, it's time to get in the car/dinner will be finished and the kitchen will be closed/time to get into bed."
Going back to the wordless removal of child -- eventually, he realized that whatever I said would happen, would happen no matter what his say. Maybe that's bad parenting, but it wasn't done with malice or physical intimidation or yelling. There were many times where I placed him in the car in his pajamas or underwear, and had to dress him upon arrival. There were many times where he lost it because I told him the kitchen was closed, which means his chances to eat dinner were over, etc.

Don't get me wrong -- it made me angry and there were many times I would put myself in time out or he would lose a privilege. I talked to many people (some even on here!) for ideas and help.

I'm sorry things are rough right now.
If it's any consolation, I now only have to offer things to his sibling instead.


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[MsSassyBaskets]

I'm sure that was all extremely frustrating for you, but it also sounds like a big WIN in terms of your response to it. It sounds like you did a great job of staying calm and not indulging the battles.

It sounds like you don't think the patient approach is sustainable, though, given how long it takes? I don't think you need to spend too long dwelling on her feelings when she's being cranky - if you've established that she's generally OK I think you're fine to say "I'm sorry you're having a hard time this morning" and then move things along like Thirteen said. You can't police feelings, she's gonna feel what she's gonna feel, but the world will keep spinning. What would happen if, after you acknowledged her feelings, everyone walked out the door and left her laying on the floor? Would she get up and follow after a minute or two? What would happen if you moved D along to getting ready for her bath, and left C sitting at the table to decide whether to finish dinner or not? Pleasantly and neutrally, of course - "D and I are going to get ready for bath now. I hope you will choose to finish your dinner and join us!" I know it's not perfect because you do need to continue keeping an eye on her and she does need to eventually get with the program, but if you removed the pressure of you being there and monitoring closely, would she choose to move on? What if you put dessert on the table at the beginning and let her decide when she's ready to have it? Then the motivation to eat is just... hunger. Just ideas... I'm wondering what happens when the motivation/consequences are more natural for her - and more internal rather than being external pressure.

[alotofyarn]

E does a lot of the same things, and it's so frustrating. I try and do a lot of what you're already doing, and what thirteen has said too. I'm hoping it's just a phase...

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[OrionGrad]

We use the timer on my phone for everything. "Ok, I'm setting my phone for 5 minutes. When it goes off we're doing X, Y, Z." If he's calm, he enjoys pushing the button on the phone to turn off the timer. If he's still freaking out, I just pick him up and do whatever needs to be done with no negotiating. The timer has been a life saver for us for the past 6 months.

We go through what you described at dinner sometimes, but when everyone else is done eating DS1 is done, too. If he hasn't started eating yet, his food is still going up on the counter. Sorry bud, you had your chance.

Three years old has been way harder than I anticipated. I think you have to trust your gut on when it's OK to negotiate and when to put your foot down. DS1 is incredibly stubborn, but I've found that he does so much better when the expectations are laid out from the beginning for any situation. ("Tomorrow morning we're going to preschool. In the morning you'll get up, get dressed, and then we need to leave by 8:45.") Even when the expectations seen obvious, he just responds much better when I'm super clear about what he needs to do beforehand.

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

Yeah I'm fine to be patient in some situations but in others (school and dinner once we're past 30 minutes) we really need to move on. She's just turned 4 and honestly turning 4 has cranked up the emotions in a MAJOR way. I'm not naturally a crier or emotive so I've had to work hard (and often fail) to not be like, "STOP CRYING ABOUT EVERY DAMN THING." I mean, you're hurt or someone was mean, totally fine to cry. If you're crying because your sister has been playing with something for 20 minutes and you just now decided you wanted it, STOP IT.

I don't know if she would eventually get up and follow out the door to school (especially since I'm not actually leaving, it's the nanny) but I could try it. I like what OG said about just taking away her food at a certain point. I'm trying to threaten less but at some point, dinner has to be over even if you're theoretically still earning dinner in pea sized increments.

[spotty_dog]

Part of the trickiness of the effing fours is that the kiddo is launching into independence -- but inside she's still just a little one who needs to be cared for. Sometimes, the best solution I have for the irrational crankies is just a big, silent, hug.

That said, now that she's quite verbal, it can be interesting to practice conflict resolution. It might still end up with you making a parental decree, but it sets the stage for collaborative problem solving down the road. You can articulate your needs: "I need to get D into her bath now. It is also important to me to know you have eaten some healthy food before you have dessert." You can articulate her needs: "You don't prefer this food, but you do want to have dessert." Then you can invite her to find a solution that meets everyone's needs. Sometimes kids are impressively creative in their out-of-the-box solutions. And when they are part of formulating the plan, they buy in to the plan that much better!

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

Oh yes, incredibly verbal and sassy. Two days ago she rebuffed a request to come to the table for dinner because "I'm GETTING Foxy [lovey] situated". Situated. Really? Thanks for being a highly verbal sasspants but GET OVER HERE MISSY.

[HouseofWool]

Oh yes, incredibly verbal and sassy. Two days ago she rebuffed a request to come to the table for dinner because "I'm GETTING Foxy [lovey] situated". Situated. Really? Thanks for being a highly verbal sasspants but GET OVER HERE MISSY.

Sophie's nickname is Sassy-m'lassy.

It does get better. It really does.

And really, the idea of a hug, can make a huge difference.

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

Last night, I set a timer and went to take the food away after an hour. She shoved a huge bite it her mouth to try and finish before I could get it and vomited most of what she'd eaten back into her bowl. I'm so frustrated. Dinner takes an hour, she won't stop because there's dessert at the end so we are all miserable. I'd cut out dessert but it really motivates the little one who has eaten well the last two nights. When DH gets home, we are cutting out dessert. This is frickin miserable. Although then they won't eat anything so that's great.

I am so over it.

[Thirteen]

Stubborness in preschoolers

Last night, I set a timer and went to take the food away after an hour. She shoved a huge bite it her mouth to try and finish before I could get it and vomited most of what she'd eaten back into her bowl. I'm so frustrated. Dinner takes an hour, she won't stop because there's dessert at the end so we are all miserable. I'd cut out dessert but it really motivates the little one who has eaten well the last two nights. When DH gets home, we are cutting out dessert. This is frickin miserable. Although then they won't eat anything so that's great.

I am so over it.

I'm so sorry.

What is she doing at the table for an hour? Does she just whine and cry the entire time? If that's the case, I'd remove her. No one wants to feel like they are being held captive by a tantruming 4 year old. Maybe tying it into "good manners" at the table?
"I'm sorry you're upset, but you may not act this way at dinner. I need you to use good manners, or you are free to be excused."
If she goes off, I'd wordlessly remove her.

(I keep forgetting you are pregnant, though, and may not be able to lift her. With DS1, I said "You can walk, or I will carry you: however, I can see that you need some quiet time." or something along those lines)

It sounds like a life lesson on her part, a little bit -- huge bites in a hurry may lead to vomiting. She may not try that one again, or she may do it a few times and then realize there's a better way.




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[TulipsAndSunscreen]

No she's generally happy for the first 20 minutes. Sort of chattering and not focusing on her food (though rating if she likes it). I periodically remind her to continue eating if she goes for 5+ mins with nothing in her mouth. It only becomes completely miserable after the first 20 mins.

So that's what's hard. I want to spend the time with her but I also need her to proceed with eating.

[Pollyanna]

Have you ever thought of serving dessert first? Children that eat dessert first do not actually "ruin" their meal and typically eat the same amount regardless of when food is served. I'd serve everything at once on their plates (yes, put the dessert right next to the green beans). Let them eat in whatever order they want. Don't set timers, don't discuss "good" food choices, don't talk about the food at all. Enjoy your time together, if some kiddos take longer sit as long as is reasonable and then say, "okay, mom needs to clean things up, you can keep eating or go play". If she eats more, cool, if not, that's cool too.

[SoonerTexan]

The second child is a never eater when it comes to dinner. He eats dinner 1 out of 5 times. Sometimes I'll leave his plate out and offer it again before bed and he will eat some. Even bribing him with dessert doesn't work most of the time--he's watched his sister eat it without him plenty.

If she still doesn't want to eat it prior to dinner, I wouldn't hesitate to just let her go to bed without eating. Not as a punishment, just "this is what is offered, if you don't want it, you don't have to eat it but you are getting nothing else." Jason goes to bed without eating dinner a lot and really really likes breakfast

I wonder if it isn't daddy-being-away related. I bet it is a phase that will pass quickly


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[Pollyanna]

Yes to leaving the plate out. For preschoolers I just leave the plate at the table until bedtime. Sometimes they'll go grab a bite and other times nothing. Again, I don't say anything. If at bedtime a little mentions they are hungry and they didn't eat dinner I'll just say, "of course you must be! Bet you'll have a huge breakfast!" Then move onto stories or whatever.