Gifted testing

[Sheherezade]

Grrr. Not a debate.

My son missed the gifted line for advanced science by one percentage point. One!!! He gets to retest - but I was hoping not to have to pull him out of class. I hate to make a big deal of getting my kid in to the higher class levels. He gets anxious and I hate to push. However, there is a noticable difference in the education between "regular" classes and the advanced classes. (That's a shame I think.) He enjoys the advanced classes and was motivated to try to get in to advanced science by taking the intial set of tests. I just got the letter. Not eligible. One point!!!! One point seems worth a second try.

What do you think? And if I do have him retest how can I help him prep this time (I didn't last time) to get that extra point? The tests are for science knowledge and reading comprehension.

[houseelf]

By any chance do you have the knowledge about the error term and/or statistical norms on this test. This seems fawking ridiculous...like a rule to have a rule type of thing.

Kelly

[alison]

My parents had me take the test for a gifted program, and I completely bombed it. Completely. I took it a second time in the second grade (for placement in 3rd grade), and placed into the gifted program. For me, it was all about taking another couple of years to mature. In your kid's case, it sounds like it was just a fluke. One percentage point, sheesh!

[Sheherezade]

They let you retest if you are within 5 points of the line. I would guess that's the error. What makes it even more ridiculous is that our district sets its line for gifted education 5 points higher than surrounding districts because they don't want to pay for more teachers. (After you are "gifted" you are entitled to special education in the form of advanced classes - so they can't lump you in to any available spot. Last year, the advanced math class had 36 kids in it. 36!! They didn't want to divide it in to two classes of 18 because they didn't have the teachers.) Easy solution to the money crunch is make it harder to be "gifted".

So....my bored not-so-little boy needs to jump just a wee bit higher.

Alison - were you distressed that you didn't make the cut? I'm thinking I'll just send in the form and not tell him. Then the counselor will just grab him and retest without explanation. Of course....then I can't prep him. Hmmm.

[houseelf]

I'm coming *dangerously* close to hijacking this thread with my thoughts about standardized testing and being moronic about rules and norms and standards. I have A LOT of thoughts on this issue, many of them fomenting before I even became a mom because of my own experiences with the Bar, the Ethics panel, the effect of testing on "good" doctors. (FWIW, DH and I are "good" test takers too.)

I'll try to refrain in the name of polite conversation.

Kelly

[peggyfromwastate]

Since he's older, and this will impact his tract for high school (right?), I would fight this. I would first go the *standardized deviation* route, and if they won't budge, I'd have him retest, and I'd go over some key scientific concepts with him first.

I think them making an issue over 1 point is...

ludicrous.

[oceanchild]

Ooh, he's in middle school, right? So this would keep him out of a higher level class for the single subject? I *hate* making those distinctions based on a test. If a kid wants the challenge, let them take the advanced class. I guess it's a little different in elementary school... I did pull-out "GT" (gifted and talented) once a week in elementary, and you probably wouldn't want everybody doing the pull-out. (Though having done the pull-out, I'm not sure there's a ton of benefit there for the "gifted" kids either.) But when you're going different directions for class anyway, let the kids take the classes they want to take.

(stepping off my soapbox)

I think Peggy's point about tracking for high school is important too. In science and math in particular, each class really depends on the next, so you can't just jump ahead later on.

[Sheherezade]

Yes. This little point gets him a year ahead in science. He starts Biology in 8th grade and would finish the science track in 11th. Then, the advanced kids get to take a year of college credit at a local college. It's supposed to be a great program. Considering that he tests gifted in science - but is one point shy on reading comprehension - it just kills me. They require the reading comprehension score to make sure you will be able to handle the textbook.

I'm dropping of the form today to retest-- and I think I will see if he can take a few practice tests online. Does that sound like a good plan -- or am I one of "those" moms now?

[GrayMatterWife]

Grrr. Not a debate.

My son missed the gifted line for advanced science by one percentage point. One!!! He gets to retest - but I was hoping not to have to pull him out of class. I hate to make a big deal of getting my kid in to the higher class levels. He gets anxious and I hate to push. However, there is a noticable difference in the education between "regular" classes and the advanced classes. (That's a shame I think.) He enjoys the advanced classes and was motivated to try to get in to advanced science by taking the intial set of tests. I just got the letter. Not eligible. One point!!!! One point seems worth a second try.

What do you think? And if I do have him retest how can I help him prep this time (I didn't last time) to get that extra point? The tests are for science knowledge and reading comprehension.

I would say: before you go through the headache of having him re-tested, I would call the principal and ask for a meeting about your kiddo. Bring husband. Speak to the principal about how much your kid likes science and the amount of support you are prepared to provide him in gifted ed--how how it is working out so well in his other gifted classes. See if the principal will allow him to enroll even having missed it by (just) one point.

[PrincessFiona]

Oh for pete's sake. I second the idea of going in and seeing if you can bypass the re-test. First of all, he made the cut in science and second of all...he missed the reading part by 1 point.

We had some ludicrous stuff here with Andrew's former middle school, Angie...I'm sure you remember me whining endlessly about it! LOL They didn't just consider test scores...they also looked at some subjective factors. So..Andrew made the cut test wise but not teacher-wise. They told me that even though his test scores were so high they *felt* he would not be successful in the higher lever courses. Andrew just didn't fit the mold there.

Interestingly, his new school looked at his test scores and let him in and he has rocked the advanced math stuff.

It's all so ridiculous.

I will say though (about the college class) that your child can enroll in a college class even if he is NOT in the gifted program. Also, I don't know what college classes they offer through your district, but our senior-to-sophomore program offers bio/chem/physics classes and they are of very poor quality and only count for elective credit...they are non-majors courses. I had the misfortune to get to be a small part of one for a year and I was highly disappointed.

Andrew is considering a class this summer at our local university and we'd rather go that way and get to pick the classes.

ramble, ramble...must. stop. caffeine.

See if you can fight it without retesting.

Keep us posted.

Kris

[alison]

Alison - were you distressed that you didn't make the cut? I'm thinking I'll just send in the form and not tell him. Then the counselor will just grab him and retest without explanation. Of course....then I can't prep him. Hmmm.

I was in kindergarten. I don't remember being distressed about it. I did so poorly that my parents thought I might have a learning disability!

The second time I took the test (two years later), I scored in the top 1%. Not to brag about my smarts, but clearly, I guess I just wasn't in the mood to take the test that first time around. I think these tests can be as fickle as that!

[PrincessFiona]

Another thing about these tests....

They are just a snapshot in time...of one day in the life of your child...one day.

Alex tested so badly on his star reading test this year that they wanted to put him in special ed. I insisted that he be re-tested...he scored very well the next time....in the span of 3 days.


Kris

[alison]

.

They are just a snapshot in time...of one day in the life of your child...one day.

Exactly!

One thing I will say about gifted programs is that a big part of why my parents wanted me in one (vs. taking certain classes in a higher grade level) was what my peer group would be like.

I think it is worth it to re-test or see if you can argue to bypass it. It does sound worth it. IMO, you are not one of those moms to have him take a practice test. (You are if you withhold dinner until he gets the right score. ).

You are lucky that your district has advanced classes. The TAG distinction doesn't get much here other than giving the parent the right to request an education plan or something like that for the child. It isn't a free pass into honors or IB in high school as those rely on 8th grade testing as well, I believe.

DD missed it by a few points, depending on how you look at it. Apparently, there are two levels. The published threshold but they will also let kids in 2 percentile points below that. She was another two below the lower number. She can re-test -- next year -- if a teacher or I nominate her. Not sure that it is worth it. If I don't do it for 4th, I'll probably request it for 5th so she has it going in to middle school, more so her teachers know than anything else.

[GrayMatterWife]

Before anyone gets irked at me... I am NOT suggesting, in ANY way, that this is Angie's motivation for getting her guy into TAG classes. AT ALL. AT ALL. AT ALL.

This is just an observation about a lot of TAG programs, and parents, from both a former TAG student and a former teacher... It's why I used to get so exasperated with my purportedly "TAG" student population when I taught "advanced" 10th grade English lit.

A lot of TAG programs are not worth anything. They are really just a way for socioeconomically advantaged parents (often translated to "white") to get their kids into a public school environment that they can be "comfortable" with. We used the same books and read the same materials. We were supposed to do more advanced activities, but the problem was, there were so many underqualified (but sufficiently privileged to have their squawking parents accommodated) students, that only a fraction of the class was truly advanced (much less genuinely gifted). It was a parking lot for children whose parents insisted that their children not be parked with the masses (regardless of whether it was to their child's advantage).

You guys know me well enough to know how I feel about any kind of raced-based advancement policies. I find it belittling and infantalizing. That's why this bothers me so much. In a lot of ways, it's all about race. There was a real problem (at least in the places where I taught) with TAG classes--where whites were a minority of the public school population, my "advanced" classes were overwhelmingly white. And I had several genuinely gifted black kids in my regular classes, who just had not had an advocate in their corner. And worse, the black kids didn't want to be in the TAG classes, because they were worried about "looking too white" and losing friends. The whole thing was de facto segregation, contributed to by both sides. One of the things that burned me up the most when I was teaching. So distracting from the task of getting kids educated.

But that being said, parents (of any race) who had a bright kid and they wanted them in the advanced classes could usually get them in. So I think pitching to the principal might be worth it. Parental involvement is SO IMPORTANT to student success. Best indicator, in my opinion, as to whether a child who tested borderlined qualified for TAG ultimately will succeed in that environment. I just wish more parents knew of how to advocate for their kids, and how to recognize giftedness--and that other parents didn't exploit TAG classes to ensure that their more average kids were in the "right crowd."

Rant over. Sorry.