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**spotty_dog** · 11-01-2005, 08:06 AM

What a terribly difficult situation. We've been there. The man you married is still there. He is overwhelmed. He is mentally and physically exhausted. He knows you cannot solve his problems from across the country and so he keeps his problems to himself. This is the male psyche at work.

How often do you visit your husband? I think some face-to-face interaction would go a long way.

Don't give up. I can see that the love and the commitment are still there from your end. We're here. Many of us have been there with the long-distance relationship. My husband left only a week ago and it's difficult, connecting with him only with a few minutes by phone every few days. I empathize with you for having your marriage go on in this state for months.

How are you feeling today?

Join Date: Nov 2024 · 11-01-2005, 08:41 AM

It sounds like you're going through a very difficult time right now. I guess you need to ask yourself - are you willing to stick through this relationship? Residency and fellowship are even more demanding. Face to face time to allow you both to reconnect is a good idea if you want to try and work through this. Sometimes I have to lower my expectations of my husband, which is a very hard thing to do. Good luck, let us know how things are going.

**Flynn** · 11-01-2005, 12:08 PM

Wow. Deep breath.

Hmmm. Not sure where to start.

What do you want? Do you truly want to be with him -- STILL?? If he's having this hard of a time in med. school I shudder to think what he will be like during residency. What is he thinking of going into??

I hate to say this, but would you be willing to quit school and move to be with him to see if your marriage is worth saving? Do you love him that much? It might take that which could be the answer OR it could just build new resentments -- only you can answer this.

Basically he needs to be acountable for his part/responsibility in this relationship and if he can't or won't -- you need to decide your game plan. It sounds like you have really worked hard at this relationship already. If he won't step up to the plate with you threatening divorce -- well it doesn't get more motivating that that does it??

Update us when you can.
Hang in there.

**Phoebe** · 11-01-2005, 03:04 PM

First of all, I am really sorry for your hard time. I can't imagine how lonely and frustrated you feel about your situation. That being said, I can understand your husband feeling overwhelmed and emotionally blunted due to his school obligations. My husband shuts down when he is stressed and fatigued which is 95% of the time. However, that is no excuse for him not pulling his weight in your relationship. And unfortunately, I don't think you can force your husband to communicate if he doesn't want to or feel up to it. I had the same issues in my relationship before and during our marriage. I learned that the only person I can control is my own behavior and reactions to situations. This is a tough, tough road and it can be long depending on the specialty your husband choses. If you try to force your husband to make a decision or have conversations he isn't up for, you could be pushing him away. The harder one tries to communicate, the more the other person backs off.

Maybe give your husband some space and start putting your needs first. Like someone posted earlier, would you be willing to leave school to be with your husband to try and work it out? It's tough enough in the same city, let alone living a plane ride away.

I am also wondering if you husband is depressed. My husband has a history of depression and withdrawl is his number one symptom. No one can tell you if you should end your marriage. We can say that your husband's career choice isn't going to lighten up anytime soon. I wish you luck and hope that things get better for you. You deserve a relationship where you get what you need! Keep us posted.

Jennifer

Join Date: Nov 2024 · 11-01-2005, 05:11 PM

Update: More of back story clarifications.

1. "How often do you visit your husband?" - Just saw him a few months ago, but I think the plan is 1-2x/year. We are both students on gigantic loans. (gigantic enough to seem daunting, and not gigantic enough to surrmount the costs of frequent bicoastal trips)

2. "How are you feeling today?" - Like vomiting. Like I'm entering a vicious cycle. I'm feeling like he wants me to hold his hand while he chews it down to the bone. As a worry wart, I have work obligations today that I am totally unprepared for and resent the fact that I will probably call in sick (I'll refer to this "call in sick" issue in a bit) because of this mess. I imagine he resents the situation at this very moment too, but he most likely will have a "spectacular" time at work.

3. " Residency and fellowship are even more demanding." - That's why I'm here. His work nature is already high. His life equation before ME was to consider himself and his career. 50/50. Pretty fair right ladies? If I knew the strength of this "predisposition" I would have thought twice. He was a good masker. Like he does now, only now, I'm tired of that mask cause he is screwing with my personal life AND our marriage.

4. "Sometimes I have to lower my expectations of my husband, which is a very hard thing to do." Believe me, I have. You might call it lowering expectations, but to go any lower than I have...well, it's called reverting. It's called regression. Did you ever see those shows or hear about child day care or schooling for toddlers and their inability to act appropriately or express themselves where they say, "Use words, Use your words." I'd have to go BEYOND that too. Maybe that is a typical thing with these people, but how much of the emotional weight are you going to carry, until really, you are having a relationship with yourself, and he's there...a warm body next to you, oh wait, no, a familiar voice over the phone, oh wait, no, a dull distant disconnected apathetic callous voice that makes the robotic lady on cell phone messages sound like an angel.

5. "What do you want? Do you truly want to be with him -- STILL??" - If I knew this IS the guy I am CURRENTLY and more importantly PERPETUALLY married to, than, HE77 NO! He once looked me in the eyes and named a lamp post after me. I put messages on his bedroom window (not creepy ones). We'd laugh. Gasp, we even held hands at the grocery store after having been through an especially tough year of marriage. Hip to hip. Is that guy around? Can I give him a call?

6. "If he's having this hard of a time in med. school I shudder to think what he will be like during residency." - I'd really have to clarify this point, and maybe you meant it differently too, so I'm sorry if I misinterpret. IF you are speaking of how he's doing in his career path, On the contrary, he's doing BRILLIANTLY. I'm serious. They've given him a lot of autonomy because of his professionalism and mature attitude towards his rotations. Good connections, etc. I see and hear his colleagues talk about too much work (whine in front of residents), expect work to come to them, lack intitiative, being irresponsible, being etc. etc. So I'm pretty objective and often harsh when it comes to labeling someone being a good worker in their profession. I've been there to serve as a sounding board in his work, he does extremely well. And the vice to this? His DEFAULT is apparently to throw himself into his work. The beauty is also where the problem lies. So, if you're talking about career performance, he's doing well. If you are talking about marriage "performance" I'm shuddering right now. Begging the question I have from #5

7. "What is he thinking of going into??" - I'm far from dictating anyone's destiny, but he says although it's a small possibility, he doesn't want to completely rule out surgery. Great. Let's just say, I'm pretty darn sure it won't be radiology, path, family, derm, etc...

8. " I hate to say this, but would you be willing to quit school and move to be with him to see if your marriage is worth saving? " Oh dear, I hate to say this, but, in my opinion (though I got career prep work done) I tried. I moved my butt across country left my family, friends, CULTURE (any), to a very uninviting community in a middle of the road small minded town that thinks they are openly embracing. Yeah I'm judgemental, but I can only get so many jeers and things directed toward me... The school itself is for the most part, more worldly, but I don't get to enjoy that part being the wife. Anyway, I devoted my life, derailed my career plans to work on the beginning part of our marriage, support him as a "good" spouse, and do whatever I could prep work for my career (last priority). Thus ensues issues that bubble up from him that I try my best to approach: the coaxing to communicate, deal with traumatic child legacies(sp?), in-law problems, economic constraints, individual counseling (me- cause I had a problem with anger), blaming, marriage counseling (turns out the crappy things he was doing {not med school related} to cause my "anger issues" was finally called out on as a professional third party), excuses of too busy to continue his counseling on individual basis cause he's too busy (though it's recommended), cooked, cleaned, at times at his beck and call, accepting "quality time" as sitting beside him while we watched something briefly on TV cause all he could do was zone out, what wife is going to massage her husbands back and feet after a long day despite the fact she thinks it's gross (I don't even massage my own feet). being his support system and punching bag, and someone he could also project all unresolved issues with his past relationships onto (sibling,exes, parents, etc.). So is my marriage worth saving? I don't know. I'm a moron. I think I've tried. Every night when I was there. Every night since the day I left to start my career. I moved my entire life the confirmation was made, put my career goals on hold (Years in my field is like decades lost), devoted myself to the marriage as a top priority, and from my POV, working hard so we would BOTH would work hard after I left, after he already began his third year. I left him with care packages, moved him into a smaller place, unpacked it, assembled it, cleaned it, organized it, put up his dress shirts, casuals, unmentionables, set up a system, made weeks if not months of frozen lunches and dinners, set up plans. Before I left, I got him on a regiment and got him to lose 30 pounds. He moved from chubby to skinny. Healthy. Why? Because I like a fine looking man. True. But really? Because a doctor should practice what he preaches right? I think I f*cken was a pretty darn good advocate for him and his career. I did it all even though I am NOT the woman who ever saw myself as "wife of a doctor," SAHM (I respect the career choice so this isn't a put down), arm candy, house cleaner, etc. BUT I did those things to support our marriage. And NO, I never sold him on any idea that I was ever such a woman to be someone on his arm. He knew I had hunger to do other things. I thought we were going to be a power couple. Working 100% on our careers and 100% each on our marriage. (You know what I mean, I know those numbers don't add up. Balance and effort is all I'm saying). I set ALL of this sh!t up. How much more can I do but simply ask before I physically leave him, "So we worked hard, we both worked SOOO hard, and we're in a good place, there are things we have to do to sustain and grow this marriage, you will make this effort and I will too right?" "Of course!" he says with deep seriousness. NOT! Remember, he was already doing third year rotations when I left. Not like I didn't see the schedule. I'm basing this solely from his actions, when I left, I saw the mentality easily shifts to, what is the bare minimum I can do TO GET AWAY WITH the appearance that "I am here for her." So I JUST left, from moving my life to support this "marriage." Am I bitter? Not completely yet. Just being very partial of my account. It's one of those, I have no idea if this is at all normal for him to do this being a medical school/future doctor who wants to be at the top of his life's work (to work with passion, not to have top scores or keep crappy count). Will this subside? Is this the real him. Obviously there was someone in there that felt things and was endearing or this wouldn't be a maddening quandry for me to cut the strings. I've often had to remind him, that emotions, and relationships ALSO require time and energy, and involvement. This guy KNOWS to be a sweetheart and be genuinely caring to his patients and colleagues and hospital staff. I grew up in a family of MEN. So I'm not the shop girl, whiney let's go shop for a car, wah wah wah, or whatever. I'm far from much of that the B.S. and attitude. I'm not so clueless that I don't know men at all. BUT, i know, despite whatever sex you are, to ignore your heart's desire and impulses is to force it to come out in other ways. FACT. Hence his mind games. Hence the fights and everything that doesn't make any LOGICAL sense to him...until later. It's the other half of life. Not just logic. Not just work. Is that ridiculous? He concedes, but does that whole, "WTF, do you want from me" blah blah blah, remorse, you're right, thing. I mean if he wants to not think about things, not support me on any (I'm not expecting hours here people) level, fine, but it's like, have the guts to say it. He disagrees with my analysis and he says he does indeed thinks he should support me. I ask if he's saying it cause that's what he thinks I want to hear, or that society pushes upon him, and he says "NO" he truly feels that way. Well, how many times is saying/verbal committment NOT going to coincide with actions?

I think put him in the E.R. or any intense WORK related situation with less than an hour of sleep and you'd see him as chippery as a labrador retriever with a tennis ball at the lake. I told him he'd sooner give up time and energy with his family that he labels as "optional" (he shows me ANY time from work is optional), if work called him (non emergencies even). He said, Yeah, that's probably true. He says stuff like that and takes it back, but actions speak louder than words right? Or is this a special circumstance? (It's not a rhetorical question people, i can't figure doctors and their spouses and the lifestyle) Is this normal or this is an ongoing mind f*ck game that I am refusing to jump out of? He feels genuine remorse and depression, he says he has no idea why he pushes me away, and it hurts him. Well, frankly, I'm out of empathy. I give and give, so when is he going to fight the fight to advocate for our relationship, or is that my inherent role as a "medical spouse?" I was never out to fix anyone or change anyone to be who they are not. If he claims he doesn't know himself, that's his job to go on that journey.

9. "If he won't step up to the plate with you threatening divorce -- well it doesn't get more motivating that that does it??" - This conversation I had happened the night after IM rotation being on call. He had rested already though (that's really being a b!tch to say, but it's true). I said "this is life and death. Call in sick for the next day." (Remember, I'm probably calling in sick today). Nothing. Say something to let me know there is love that I'm not the only one fighting tooth and nail. Nothing.

There comes a point when the guy has to do the work in the marriage. Work that has visible effects, not just words or actions that he thinks is going on in his head. It's not good enough for me. I mean if I'm working morning till night weekdays, prepping on weekends, I guess I don't have exhaustion or tough times either? Sure, I would even tip the scales on his side to say that his exhaustion is beyond comprehension, more so than mine (you win, are you happy, you're more miserable?) but what am I chopped liver?

Why am I still here then? What the heck is going on? WHY am I such an idiot?

Death till we part. I'd always believed it. But what kind of marriage is this; Specifically mine?

RE: med spouse marriage- You see them once in a blue moon. Is there some light at the end of the tunnel you all know about that I don't?

I write. It may seem that I'm crazy. It may seem like I know the answer already. I am actually in a complete fog. Anyone care to clear the air with me. Be blunt if you wish, but please don't be too brutal. I am coming from a place of extreme ignorance regarding this entire matter. No friends or family to relate or talk to.

**DCJenn** · 11-01-2005, 07:37 PM

The medical marriage sucks, and it sucks more often than it's good. If they told you that in the beginning, no one would do it. Unlike childbirth (so I've heard) where you eventually ge tthis cute creature, there is nothing cute on this road.

Seriously, he may be acting like and ass, they ALL do whether male or female. YOU will be the one making all of the career sacrifices, moves, raising any kids and handling 90% of life. and that's the upside of living in the same house.

As far as stress? 3rd year does suck. But it's better than internship year, and residency and pretty much all three of our years of fellowship have sucked ass. Then next year we get to be attendings- without the so-called 80 hour work week.

My point? This isn't his decision. It's yours. How much crap do you feel like dealing with? and if you decide that he's worth it, you have to move. My husband and I were apart nearly all of our dating life and it was great. But, we had a new relationship- when you're more willing and able to look over the seriously obnoxious sh@t that happens. Believe me, as his wife, we have, ummm, limits to the dickly behavior that get displayed.

It's hard. but I also think that there's no way you can make this decision without looking in each others eyes and agreeing that there's no other way.

Jenn

**DCJenn** · 11-01-2005, 07:38 PM

PS- a marriage cannot survive on 1/2 X year. that's called a friendship.

Jenn

**Flynn** · 11-02-2005, 08:44 AM

I can't agree more with Jenn (the previous poster). She is right. This is YOUR choice. What can you deal with and what WILL you deal with. You need a face to face heart to heart and he needs to be a man and tell you what he thinks. What are your minimum requirements in a relationship -- then downgrade because this is a "medical" relationship. This is all about you right now. Figure out what you can deal with, tell him and engage in a negotiation. He can't TRULY think what he is doing (or not doing) is ok -- he knows he's being an ass he might not be able to pull himself out of it though by himself. Ask him what he wants from you. If it's "to let him do his thing and be there when he needs you" THEN RUN. THat's NOT realistic nor is it ethical, noble, insert adjective here...

I can't get off the "third year thing." It's hard BUT intern year is BRUTAL. HORRIFICALLY BRUTAL. If he goes into surgery and this is how he acts IN HIS THIRD YEAR -- shudder shudder shudder.

I go back to what Jenn says. This is YOUR choice. Have a face to face talk, and see what happens but have a plan BEFORE you see him based on YOUR NEEDS. Not his. Staying with him MIGHT be more harmful to you than a marriage breaking up. That's probably hard to wrap your brain around right now but consider if it's true....getting over him and this relationship MIGHT be easier than being married with him and going through residency with him.

It's all about you. Deep breath. Talk to someone who loves you on what you really need in a relationship to be and feel valued. Most of us here have been to the brink in our marriage at least once -- that's why we're here. I was a basket case when I first found this site and now I (hesitation) truly believe I have a strong marriage for anyone -- not just a strong medical marriage. It took a lot of work from me AND from my DH -- I was ready to leave him if he didn't step up to the plate participate in our relationship and our family and not get stuck in his "medical wind tunnel." This profession BREEDS SELF-INVOLVEMENT. But enough about me.

You can't do this by yourself he HAS to participate for this to work. So figure out what you need, communicate it to him, give him some time, mabye even see a counselor yourself and then evaluate what's happened before you make a decision. Good luck. You deserve better than this. Hell, my DOG deserves better than this. This is no way to live so take the bull by the horns and do something about it. You'll feel better getting some power back in this relationship.

**planet** · 11-02-2005, 08:39 PM

Painful times....

Hi,

I guess I’ll be responding to this and introducing myself at the same time. Introduction first, to catalogue briefly; I am the wife of a surgery intern, have two toddlers, my spouse and I dated before he went to med school, went to the same undergrad, married after the first year of school. We’re heavily in debt. I am also educated but sah now.

Breathing helps.

It’s funny how I would have thought you were just crazy before going through this process (you said be blunt), but then I also thought my kids wouldn’t be messy eaters before I had kids. My husband and I have lived together in the city in a slum, lived apart for a year, had two kids during med school. When the second was born I had to come back from the hospital and pack up our apartment and move that month with no help while he did a sicu rotation. Our youngest is a year and a half and has actually spent about 6 months with his dad around. I am pretty much single. I would say that you relax first as much as you can and really think hard about the road ahead. I do believe marriage is a serious commitment, but I also don’t think it is worth losing your sanity over. My yardstick these days is pretty simple, and may seem a bit grim to you. If, when my spouse has had a full night of sleep and has a day off and spends an hour with us doing something fun, if at that time we can still make jokes and find something to talk about and laugh about I figure we’re doing okay. Yeah, pretty sad. That’s the reality for us though. He is NOT available to support me emotionally (or financially or practically…he is an intern). I do lose sleep sometimes. I am often lonely and revel in the times I still get hit on at the gym by cute guys. Love is not always enough to hold a relationship together. You sound so analytical. I can relate. Sadly, you may be forced to look into the wrenching decision when faced with the likely reality that what you imagine and want and can probably easily visualize coming to pass in your relationship is just not going to happen. Your husband probably still could be the man who names lampposts for you. You could be hip joined again. But from what I have been through and seen now, well, I don’t think that young, wonderful love comes back easily. Maybe especially not until this process is over. Maybe never (unless you’re Tom Cruise or something…he seems eternally able to be madly in love). I talk to my husband deeply though (yeah, infrequently), about this kind of stuff. I mentioned in ‘passing’ that I was having a lot of flashbacks, like ptsd, to childhood and our early days in love. He said he was too. It was short, but bonding to know we were both struggling. Maybe I am more naïve than you. I tell myself that I can be the more understanding and giving because I don’t watch people suffer. I don’t see death coming, or the looming loss of a limb, or make a decision that may or may not have caused a mi. My spouse is very professional and very bright. And maybe you can’t tell sometimes in dealing with him, but he’s human and he still cares. I decided to stick with it because ultimately I am willing to sacrifice some of my needs to allow him to give what may be a finite amount of caring to others. Maybe it’s a lie I tell myself so I stay. Regardless, I think I will not be the only one to tell you that it will get worse before it gets better.

It has helped me to read posts of others too. I find that every frustration I have had has come up and been discussed. Sorry for not joining in before now. You know how it is, being kind of busy and all J

Penelope, I have only one valuable piece of advice: Don’t make a major decision until you can laugh. You are living apart. Threatening divorce in this case is a way of using it to try to make a change, right? Since you are already separated physically, then all you need to do for yourself is to live. Your relationship is what you want to change, not your marital status right now. Unless you have someone waiting in the wings and the license is holding you up then the D word is a threat rather than a solution. We’ve all done it in our desperation, but it isn’t a great card to play. Take that energy and go out dancing, to a comedy show, to a spa, to see a good friend. Give yourself love and life and fake it until it sinks in, then when you can laugh and breathe, then give your marriage a close look again. Read Tolstoy. He’s fabulous at painting the world through his characters’ emotions. Of course, I have my days too.

Take care.

**planet** · 11-02-2005, 08:47 PM

Qualifier

Haha, I forgot to mention that my husband IS on a time schedule. He has this internship year left to indulge himself. Then we have a common agreement that my needs come first.

I'll let you know what happens next year.

**spotty_dog** · 11-03-2005, 08:06 AM

Hey, I didn't catch your first name.

Welcome! You sound like a delightfully sane and with-it woman. What a fabulous and insightful post of advice. Glad to have you here. Hope you find it helpful to commisserate with other surgery spouses.

**Meenah** · 11-03-2005, 09:16 AM

Welcome and glad you found us. It sounds like you have a lot on your plate right now. You have received some good advice here, I don't have much to add. Check out the other forums in this site.
Luanne

**planet** · 11-06-2005, 07:11 AM

Sacrifice goes both ways

Hi Penelope,
I hope things are going a little better. There was so much emotion and angst in your emails. Been there. You know, one more thing that I was thinking about is that HE has to make some real sacrifices to show you that he is part of the team. There are SO FEW ways to do that in the med track. One way though is for you two to decide on his choice of career together. Surgery SUCKS. No doubt. Hours are long. Demands are high. Call is frequent and they really work the whole time. There are a lot of 'life friendly' specialties out there. You wanted him to call in sick, right. He can't really back down on his commitments, but he CAN determine what those commitments are to some extent. Probably some people out there don't agree with me on this...follow your dream and all... but I think it is fair to demand to be part of choosing your future. If he can step up to the plate on that, well, then you have a peer partner. Fourth year gets easier than third btw. Maybe even consider letting HIM see some of the posts on this site to see that you are not some exception. He is surrounded by mostly single students and may not have reinforcement that helps your point of view. Hey, hang in there.
Janet

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My Crisis probly=your typical day. dying inside. pls help!

My Crisis probly=your typical day. dying inside. pls help!

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