California Spanking Ban

[SuzySunshine]

California will write a law for anything

[DrWahoo]

Totally overstepping the bounds of privacy

[Meenah]

Total BS!!!!!!!

[madeintaiwan]

I agree that this would be ridiculous but I can see why they would want to do it. I don't know what the numbers are now but four years ago when I was working as a counselor in a residential treatment facilty (AKA maximum level 54 bed group home) for emotionally disturbed children who had been abused and/neglected there were 100,000 new abuse cases a year in CA. The things these children have endured, it is no wonder they end up screwed for the rest of their lives. If you could read some of the files on these kids, it is heartrenching and I can see why such a law should exist in CA. My MIL is a PICU nurse at CHLA and there are frequently stories about infants/young children who are beaten to death by an adult. Child abuse is a problem everywhere but it is a huge problem in CA. There are no where near enough beds/homes for these kids and many many of these kids go back to their parents and end up getting beaten some more or killed. This law won't matter to those of us who don't abuse the use of spanking. But who knows, it might make some of the parents who do think twice before wailing on their kids. And sure some may think that it's non of our business but these emotionally distraught kids end up going to school with our kids, live in our neighborhoods. By the time these kids got to me they were 8 and older and had already endured so much. Some things can never be taken back and there comes a point when broken is broken. Anything that might maybe help protect these kids I am all for. My aunt fosters and there are new kids rolling in every month, sometimes every week.

[Vanquisher]

I agree that spanking should be illegal. It is wrong and abusive IMO, and other things work better without violence.

:!

[Sheherezade]

I'm in the middle on this. (No surprise!) I agree with Davita.....and I think the huge abuse problem probably has lead to this. I'm sure many abusive parents use "spanking" as their explanation or justification. It's hard to draw the line in the middle of physical discipline - so I think they drew it at the start. None. No hitting. I do the same thing in this house, even thought sometimes the hitting is "part of the game". It's too hard to tell - and it escalates. So...no hitting.

I would probably vote yes if this was on a ballot. Of course, we don't spank here, so that's easier for me.

[rainbabies]

there is a difference between spanking and all out abuse. abuse=illegal......a swat on the buns, or a smack on the mouth for nasty sassy talk is my business. the government has no right to tell me not to spank my child. :!

[Vanquisher]

As someone who was abused as a child under the veil of spanking, I say no dice.

It does not work. It is abusive. It is not a pat or a swat, IMO. It is abusive, and I will never see it another way. This is something that has no gray area for me. You are taking and exerting physical prowess over a smaller and intimidated fearful child. I just don't buy that it is the only thing that works or that it is ever justified. We do not spank in this house and never have. My children are also quite well behaved.

It is intimidating, meant to cause fear, aggressive, and violent, and I cannot see it another way.

I should probably back out of this debate now.

THere is clearly a difference between abuse and a disciplinary spanking.

Is there? What is the difference? What are the boundaries? Where does one draw the line between a spanking and abuse? Is it the number of swats? Or the number of swats depending on how hard the child is hit? Or the number of spankings calculated with the amount of force from a belt or a paddle?

I was abused as a child and I assure you my father did not know the difference between a spanking and abuse.

I will never use spanking as a means of discipline. I do not believe it works. I agree that it's a bit big brother, but maybe putting it into law is the only way to curb abuse and educate parents with better means of discipling their children and setting boundaries. Education is a far better means.

[Rapunzel]

I will never use spanking as a means of discipline. I do not believe it works. I agree that it's a bit big brother, but maybe putting it into law is the only way to curb abuse and educate parents with better means of discipling their children and setting boundaries. Education is a far better means.

You might be surprised how much your views of raising children change once you actually have them....

One of my pet peeves is getting parenting advice from people who have no clue how to parent because, well, they've never parented! I don't believe anyone should be allowed to be a social worker and judge parents until they have been a parent themselves. And, even then they need better education on the fourth Ammendment and normal parenting practices.

Yes, this law is about abuse: Abuse of government power. This blends in quite well with the thread Kris started about the schools believing they know what is best for her own children. Absolutely ridiculous. Governments have a HORRIBLE track record of raising children. Look at any government institution in charge of raising children (foster care system, anyone?) and all you see is the destruction of said children's lives.

Now, I don't personally spank my children. It wouldn't work well for my own kids. However, I do know some children for which it does work wonders. And, yes, I was spanked growing up. It was not abusive and every single spank - with one exception - was definitely deserved. And, the one that wasn't deserved? I got an enormous apology for that one and it impressed me that my father was humble enough to tell a little child he made a mistake.

So, this law would not affect my current parenting. However, it would severly limit my ability to parent by taking away a valid, non-abusive form of correction.

And, as someone else stated, this isn't going to stop abusers from abusing their children since the only ones who will abide by the law will be the people who abided by the laws to begin with! CRIMINALS DO NOT OBEY LAWS - THAT IS WHAT MAKES THEM CRIMINALS! It's basic common sense that is very much lacking in today's society. Perhaps that comes from too many having mediocre public educations (another example of the government not being terribly wonderful at raising children).

[Sheherezade]

I know that lawmakers aren't the most honest bunch, but I do think that this might be a good measure to close "loopholes" that abusers use to escape prosecution. I don't think "spanking" has been legally defined - has it? I think there is a lot of latitude in what different families consider acceptable physical discipline. You tush-swatters out there might be very surprised to find that other parents use wooden switches or paddles and leave bloody behinds and call it "spanking". Maybe it would be good to just have a measure that defines what acceptable "spanking" involves. Is that already on the books?

I think it would suck to be a judge and have to let off someone that is clearly abusing their children because they are "just executing their right to corporal punishment" when you know it has gone too far.

Maybe we just need a better definition of "too far".

Of course there is a difference to us. But that "difference" is relative and circumstantial to the one doing the spanking.

My sister uses paddles to "blister their behinds" on her 3 children and she calls it spanking. In fact, she bought the paddle based on the recommendations of her church's counselor!

[Sheherezade]

There is too much latitude, IMHO. Here's what I found as an example of the legal definition of physical abuse of children.

Physical Abuse:

Physical abuse occurs when a parent (or person legally responsible) commits a physical act (i.e. punching, beating, shaking, throwing, kicking, biting, burning) which causes serious physical injury to a child. Although the injury is not an accident, the parent or caretaker may not have intended to hurt the child. The injury often results from out of control rage and anger, which can lead to over-discipline or physical punishment that is inappropriate to the child’s age or condition. If a resulting injury is not considered serious, it may be considered a form of neglect.

Working Definition:

Physical abuse

occurs when a parent (or person legally responsible) inflicts or allows to be inflicted a serious physical injury. These are limited to:
# Death
# Serious or protracted disfigurement
# Protracted impairment of physical or emotional health
# Protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily organ

Physical abuse also occurs if a parent (or person legally responsible) creates an immiment danger of harm.
Examples:
- A parent leaves a child home alone in a house with a gas leak in the stove and the child
could be injured or killed by an explosion
- A parent fired a gun at a child, and missed hitting the child

If a person who is not legally responsible for the care of the child commits any of these acts, it is considered physical assault. This is a criminal act. All cases of physical assault of a child should be referred to the police.

Ask yourself if you would be OK with this as a definition of what your childcare provider would *not* do to your kid in your absence. It's a little too broad for me. I think other children deserve more protection from physical abuse. Maybe not a ban on spanking, but a tighter definition of what constitutes unacceptable physical discipline. I don't think permanent injury and death should be when we first say "Not OK".

I applaud all you that are OK with spanking.....because you have a lot more faith in your fellow man than I do. I think some parents out there really don't mind whacking the s*it out of their kids from time to time and calling it "spanking for their own good".

[madeintaiwan]

Big brotherish?!! It's not like they are going to have cameras in your house or something. This law really probably won't change things. So what's the big deal to you non-abusive tushy poppers. Especially those of you who don't even live in CA. In CA, there are probably 2 to 3 times more kids getting abused every year than what gets reported (The numbers reported are in the 100,000). If you don't beat your kids, it's not going to matter because I am sure that no one who mandated to report such things is seriously going to report you popping your kid's tushy when there are 1000s of kids getting the life beaten out of them everyday. Just as someone stated until you are a parent perhaps you shouldn't spew out parenting advice I believe the same goes for abuse. If you haven't been abused or worked with or seen first hand the DEVASTING effects of abuse I think you should think twice about saying it's bogus or it's not going to help things. So lets do nothing, I hope you sleep better knowing that you're purposely blocking a law that will really have no direct affect on your life and parenting methods but could possible help even a few kids sleep better in their beds at night. And as far as it not being anyone business. I guess you don't mind your tax dollars going to pay for these kids. At the 54 bed facility that I worked at the county that the kid came from payed over 7,000 a month for them to be there and that was just for their residential treatment. The non-public school received money too. If you think abuse doesn't matter wait til your kids are in school with them having their classes disrupted. I can spot an abused kid a mile away. They are everywhere. It still amazes me that so many people just brush this issue under the table as if it won't affect them just because they don't abuse their kids or have family who does it. And if you have been abused or have dealt with abuse in any capacity then my apologies, I guess I just feel different about the issue. And we agree to disagree.

It's illegal here.

Not sure how they police it, unless a child reports it to public serivced they come in contact with like health care providers or teachers in schools. There is loads of promotions in child health clinics. I agree with it but maybe thats because I'm aware that is against the law or maybe I'm just in a lucky position that its even on the rare occasion that ds ends up on his naughty step. The TV and magazines are over loaded with ways to discipline children in order to promote the no spanking laws. However, I think only a parent can judge what way they choose to discipline their children obviously once the child come to no emotional or physical harm, like Kris says its a grey area.