Raising "can't do" kids?

[PrincessFiona]

Something has really been nagging at me lately (imagine that ). It bothers me a lot that every project that our children are assigned or are involved in is totally parent-led and parent-completed...from homework to boyscouts to ...well..everything.

Here are my examples:

1. Andrew's science fair project. There were no kid-completed projects that caught my eye when I walked through the displays. Basically, 6th graders were assigned a science fair project that was thought-through my them (possibly) and their parents (possibly exclusively?). Decoration? Parents. Grammar? Parents. I'm no better...I didn't let my son walk in with *just* his own work. Holy cow...he couldn't have passed....but...it would have been his own work and I think it would have been good. How can kids even be assigned a research project when they aren't given the foundations in math and science to analyze their results? It doesn't make sense to me.

2. Boyscouts. 2 cars this year for the pinewood derby were actually made by kids....and this year...I made Alex's (it looked like he made it though ) The 7 and 8 year old's cars that they were supposed to build themselves with their parent supervising (not doing) had working lights and sirens (wow!), professional paint jobs, double decker levels...you name it.

Why can't we just let our children do their science fair projects, pinewood derby cars, etc.

Are we raising "can't do" kids who won't be able to move on and have confidence in their ability to do something themselves?

Kris

[Sheherezade]

I have seen this problem in the past, but I'm happy to say we don't have too much of it here. Kids here may be living in the past (I live in a very nostalgic town ) but at least the past was good at giving kids the reins. My son has done all his own projects since 4th grade - and he has been graded fairly. Clearly there is parental over-involvement in some cases - but the teachers usually subtly tell the parents that "You've already done 4th grade...give your kid a chance! " Maybe you should speak to the teachers/administration about the problem. They need to deal with it. You can't fight all the parents - but the teachers can be directed to make projects more kid centered -- or make the work take place at school. (That's what happens here often - the paper is written entirely in class, etc.)

I don't think it is helping kids to do it for them. I know it is hard to stop helping....and the schools need to make sure that happens. Fourth grade was our transition year here. The parents were basically kicked to the curb. Your invovlement in school is still needed and wanted....but it is more controlled so that the kids get some responsibility and independence. I think it's tricky for all sides of the equation, but I think by 6th grade kids should be working independently on most projects.

Isn't Andrew in Boy Scouts now? We have parents included in Cubs....but also kicked to the curb in Scouts at the fifth grade level. At that point, they work with the older troops (high school boys) mostly. I'm not sure that's a great idea, either though.....

[DCJenn]

It's been around forever... (there was an episode of Little House on the Prairie about this very issue)

I remember my dad's ONLY year coaching my brother's baseball team, he and the other coach insisted that all of the kids would get to play. Yes, they lost every game but the KIDS had a great time. and yes, he got weekly flak from the parents' of the "good kids". (and the occasional thanks from the parents of the less-athletically inclined)

Jenn

It's been around forever... (there was an episode of Little House on the Prairie about this very issue)

We had some issues with this for a school project that was turned in last week. DD wanted to type it and the red grammar and spelling squiggly lines on MSWord upset her aesthetic sensibilities. Once she found out those indicated errors, she had to fix all of them -- with our help. I figured she learned some grammar and spelling that way. I wonder what her teacher will think of her report. The rest of her project looks kid-made so I'm not too worried. The parent done ones really stick out.

[PrincessFiona]

Angie...Is there a house for sale near you? I plan on moving in and becoming your crazy neighbor :>

kris

[Tenacious_D]

I was a 6th grade teacher for two years and I had my students start and work on projects while in school. It was a good way to see what they could really accomplish without their parents and it allowed for students to be graded equally.

I know that it's hard to tell teachers how and what to teach but it wouldn't be such a bad idea to suggest that idea. Having the majority of a project done while in school was also a way to help teach kids researching and other important skills. I hope it gets better.

[PrincessFiona]

It's really not just the school thing...It is a general trend that I see. Maybe because we live in an area with a lot of professionals that want their kids to be successful I'm seeing this?

Andrew is in Boy Scouts...and...all of the meetings are leader led. Andrew has basically stopped going. The leader talks at the kids for the whole meeting...and that's all they do.

kris

[Tenacious_D]

It's really not just the school thing...It is a general trend that I see. Maybe because we live in an area with a lot of professionals that want their kids to be successful I'm seeing this?

You are completely right. It is totally a trend that is getting out of control (esp. among wealthy/progessional oriented communities). That's why I chose to have my students do a lot of work in class. Some of the major assignments the students did at home came back to me as if Steve Jobs or Bill Gates worked on it. It was the worst for some students because their parents never bothered to explain to them what the whole project was about and they would come into class not knowing how to explain it to others or myself...not very fair for the students.

[Rapunzel]

Kris, I am the Webelos leader for our troop (my son is in Webelos now) and we work on the pins every week at our den meeting. The kids are supposed to work on other things with their parents but, really, the major stuff happens around us. So, these boys are definitely doing it all themselves! This year, rather than a pinewood derby, we're doing the spaceship thing (space derby is what the scouting program calls it I think) and, let me tell you, if some kid showed up with an obviously parent-made spaceship people would be taken aback (especially the other parents - who overwhelmingly make their kids do all of the work).

I think it depends on who is in charge of your scout troop. You know, as a parent, you can go to the monthly Roundtable meetings to get an idea of what is REALLY supposed to be going on every week in scouts. And, talking at the boys is just not what is supposed to happen. There is a distinct possibility that your scout leaders have never gone to leadership training and/or do not attend the Roundtables.

My advice to get your scout program back on track is to become active as a volunteer in the program. Make it clear to all parents involved that the work HAS to be done by the BOYS. After the Webelos level the adult leader has to sign off on any attempts to receive a badge or pin. So, as an adult leader you can makeit clear you will NOT sign off on work that is obviously not done by the child himself. It means more work for you - and it's not been an easy job for me, personally speaking. But, I think it is worth it.

As far as the schools go.... Again holding my tongue.

[mommax3]

I make a point of telling teachers the first time a project is assigned that I will NOT be contributing to the completion of the project. There have been times that that has worked against my children, particulary in the younger grades. My oldest one is smart, but not known for neatness or finesse (or organization). It is what it is and if it became a trend, I would complain or decide I was at the wrong school.....but that (fortunately) has not been the case, except for in isolated incidents.

I do agree with you, Kris.....I think that many parents ARE raising can't do kids. But not you and me! (and Angie, etc.....)

Sally

[PrincessFiona]

I think....that I *am* starting to raise 'can't do' kids. This is what bothers me the most. I joked about Andrew's science fair project being "our" project...but it was. I made Alex's car this year. I have gradually taken on more and more of my children's homework and responsibilities...and I don't like it at all. It just seems like if so man parents are helping....then your child is at a disadvantage if you aren't. Ultimately though, helping them will not give them an edge in the future.

I am afraid of going back to the days of letting them turn in their poster boards wtihout mom's helping hand. Andrew is not artistic or organized either.

I like your approach, Sally, and honestly...I'm going to do it. Next big project I will make a point of letting the teacher know it will be a kid-driven project.

Chrisada, I'm sure it is a huge pet peeve for teachers! I seriously wish when these projects were assigned a note would go home that says "student work only...."


Jenn, Webelos was a diff. ballgame here. Until they became official boyscouts, we did projects at every single meeting. It was a great program. Once the boys become offical boyscouts though, the big head honcho takes over...and more than 1/2 the boys have already left. Several parents have taken a shot at *suggesting* things or offering help.....I offered to volunteer to do a website for our pack etc....nada...this guy wants to do it on his own. It's too bad. All of Andrew's best friends are kids he met in the cubscouts.

[Flynn]

I think it's okay to assist your kids -- especially when they need help to keep a project going. Sometimes kids get stuck and need some guidance.

The kid needs to be in charge though. My parents would "help" but I had to make a list of supplies and write a list on what I planned to do and what the end product would be. They would help me trouble shoot prior to starting or help me if I got stuck.

I will never forget when "one of THOSE moms" came in to talk to our English teacher. The word was SHE did the project that earned a C+ and she was pissed. Her son confirmed that's why she went to talk to Mr. So and so. SHE did the project. 8)

I think it's okay to assist your kids -- especially when they need help to keep a project going. Sometimes kids get stuck and need some guidance.

Phew -- thanks! This project we just turned in would be too involved and complicated for her to do herself. I suppose that would be another topic, the appropriateness of some of these assignments. I certainly did not do the project but there was a fair amount of guidance. I think she would have been frustrated otherwise and end up disliking or dreading these sorts of assignments. The diorama project from a few months ago was more appropriate because she could do most of that on her own.

[PrincessFiona]

This project we just turned in would be too involved and complicated for her to do herself.

OK...but see, we come full circle again, Nellie. I know I'm stuck on my most recent example (science fair project) but too many of these projects simply go beyond the ability level of the child...do we let our kids turn in mediocre projects because they are beyond their ability levels? Do we allow them to get C's or D's...or even fail while they do the work themselves and sit by while other kids are getting As with parental help?

There is no way that Andrew had the background to develop any kind of a science project...though I thought he had a neat idea and he came up with it/did it mostly himself....except for tabulating results (which is...ummm...probably the most important part )

Andrew's good friend did a project trying to find out which cheese would get moldy first. He got a few diff. kinds of cheese and put them all in the back of the fridge. None of them molded...he got a D.

Clearly, the kids were not given supervision, direction or help and didn't have enough scientific background to run with a project.

I don't understand why teachers didn't find out about the projects (Andrew didn't even have to tell his teacher what he was doing), help the kids find direction, teach them how to research a topic etc.

It was a free-for-all. You had kids who did "how many cartwheels can I do in a row" (I'm sorry, to me that is not a science project...the girl got an F...and I felt badly for her...she could have been given more direction from the beginning), kids trying to do something microbial and then everything in between...with no real solid knowledge to back themselves up.

What is a parent to do?

kris

I think it is a hard balance to strike. DH and I were wondering as we were helping her -- are we helping too much? Not enough? Obviously, for first grade, I am not concerned about the grade but I wouldn't want her to feel bad about her project.

Some examples of what I was stuck on -- her report was on sea caves. She needed to look up information. She can do a google search by herself and read most of the content that comes up. She wrote down facts she thought were important. Here is where I stepped in and told her she had to write in her own words. She would have never known that if I hadn't told her or given examples of what "in her own words" meant. It was in her words, not mine -- but is that too much help? This wasn't reviewed in her class but I think it is really important.

We also got a book from the library. I did the library catalog search with her watching and tried to give her a super-brief rundown on the Dewey decimal system. She knew the general area to look in the library but I explained the catalog, different books at different libraries, etc. One of the books should have been on the shelf and wasn't so we talked to the librarian. I tried to have her start the conversation and she did but for Pete's sake -- she is 6!

I think this project was too much for first grade unless there are some aspects of report writing and presentation preparation that is included in the classroom. Working on the projects in class is a great idea. I know there are some kids in her class who will have had no help or direction at all. I don't think that is much of a learning opportunity.