Kitsch Religion

[poky]

Um. Wow. The gall of implying the traditional, evangelical religions *aren't* political....of course, it was written 11 years ago, and that may have been a little more true then. Maybe.

[Rapunzel]

Hmmmm....

What that article reminded me of was the Boston Unitarian Universalist church. They post their sermons online and there isn't a lot of religion involved in them - mainly politics, social activism and philosophy.

Here's their website (the link to the sermons, that is):

http://www.fscboston.org/index.php?/worship/


Regardless of the author's conclusions the fact is that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints IS the fastest growing religious denomination in the United States - and one of the fastest growing in the world. I know the author tries to figure out why the LDS church and other more "traditional" churches seem to be growing as the others progressively shrink - I don't know if I entirely agree with the thinking/conclusions - but the underlying subject IS a recognizable fact.

[planet]

Gosh Annie, now I'm going to read it just to talk to you. :mydoc:
I'll find a time when the kids are busy then jump in. Without having read the article, I will say that consistent, rigid rules seem better at keeping people from straying so the hypothesis sounds valid as a cause.

[planet]

Well, I have had different experiences with Reform vs. Conservative vs. Orthodox Congregations than this author, but I don’t think it makes a difference to the essay or topic. This rambles a bit so feel free to steer back to an issue.

About the essay content…
To the first issue: I would suggest that part of the issue is that of reverence. When we are part of a sacred and traditional ceremony, such as the conservative brit milah, we are connected to God by philosophy and spiritual bond, but also by history. I truly felt an awe that we stood saying the same words and pledging the same covenant as was done thousands of years ago. I imagine it can be the same for Christians where the feeling of being a part of history draws out more respect for your own religion. I’m not saying that the people and church themselves should be the objects of reverence, but they are our tangible connections to faith and practice. Perhaps the additional (hate to use this phrase, but for lack of a better one) peer pressure from within an institution you can respect also has influence? And it seems to be human nature to believe people who speak with authority and surety. How hard is it to question the truth and validity of your faith when your spiritual elders themselves say things along the lines of “yes, its our truth, but there are other truths out there..” Why not go looking for those? Why have mine? In this sense, staying in your lane lines makes it easier to see where you came from.

I will admit that when we did spiritual consults prior to ds1’s birth I ended up with far more respect for the rabbi than the rector. The reform rabbi told us it was fine to have exposure to different faiths, but that he would not, nor would he find it appropriate at all to allow a bar mitzvah unless other faiths were rejected and Judaism alone was chosen. Sure. I get that. It is a commitment and a choice. The Episcopalian rector was completely fine with allowing both a bar mitzvah and a baptism. Wait? Isn’t there a conflict there? I have to admit that it gets hard to feel an awe for a half-attempted belief.

About politics. How can you separate religion from politics? I have always understood that the foundation of religious instruction was a guideline on how to live your life. This author claims that conservatives point at liberals for taking on politics and non-spiritual matters? I don’t buy it. What is non-spiritual? Gay rights? Is it non-spiritual to support or non-spiritual to condemn? It is easy to call something political these days as a blanket way of diminishing its value. I hear it all the time from this administration. I’d like to avoid the confusion that I see, where as long as a view is acceptable to one side it is somehow spiritual, rather than political or vice versa. I do agree that seldom do members of a faith know where their money to the leaders really goes. Lastly, I accept that this may be an area where I misunderstand because it is more new testament related.

I will say I agree with his third part about the social aspect. I can’t see how allegiance could be built to a faith based on just the social interaction. People move, flavor of congregations change. Are you going to keep changing beliefs to suit the next clique?

I wonder if also at work is the rate of change? Religions have slowly adapted to the changing world, but today the rate of change is so fast that perhaps the increasing shearing of faiths is partly due to lack of enough time to incorporate the changes. Fledgling religions may be more prone to fail? By saying this I am implying that reform Judaism is a different religion than Orthodox, and the episcopal church, if it had time, would split too.

But why are the southern Baptists and Mormons growing so fast? I wonder if that has more to do with the fact that they simply have lots of kids? It has worked for the Hispanic population in America. TR has us.

I’ll be honest that I don’t really get the kitsch definition, not the way I think it might be meant. Maybe it will stew and make more sense to me? Sounds like a lot of the bs I heard when still studying art, so maybe, as I guess happened back then, I am still missing the point. Because I don’t know how one who really believes can separate the truth from the world. We have prayers to say before eating, before washing hands? Is this the truth? Is it the world? I guess I understand the miraculous about God to be that it is complete. If we could only really listen, it is all there. My own deafness should not be misinterpreted as a deficit on God’s part or a representation of His intent. Who is to say which comes first anyways? Couldn’t I abide strictly by all Kosher tenants and still never be touched by the spirit of God? Is it possible for me to still have a chance before its too late? Because, me? I’m a lazy Jew, not a liberal one. I actually have very conservative views, but not practices and I’m totally hypocritical here. I am not proud of it, but there it is.

Not mentioned in this is something I have observed in my sister’s family. They are born again borderline fundamentalist Christians. They carefully screen and restrict access to information for their children. Her kids don’t know Harry Potter as anything but an evil promotion of witchcraft. Her children will be her faith because by the time they are grown enough and able to access alternate viewpoints, they will be fully ingrained with a certain outlook. So to come full circle, the more options you have, the more you’ll take if you don’t really respect where you come from?

[Rapunzel]

But why are the southern Baptists and Mormons growing so fast? I wonder if that has more to do with the fact that they simply have lots of kids? It has worked for the Hispanic population in America. TR has us.

Can't say about the Southern Baptists but I do know that the majority of the LDS (Mormon) church's growth is NOT via births but, rather, conversions.

Bennion and Young noted, “Although Mormons reject infant baptism, they count as members any ‘children of record’ blessed and named soon after birth. Thus unbaptized children of members (until age eight) make up an important share of the LDS population (about 15 percent among Americans).”[27] Demographic data contradict the popular belief that the LDS Church is growing rapidly because of large families. Annual LDS statistical report data show that increase of LDS children of record was 98,870 in 2004 and 99,457 in 2003 (0.8 percent of membership).[28] This represents a modest rebound from lower increases in prior years that had bottomed out with 69,522 new members of record in 2001 (0.6 percent of membership), which was lower than any increase of children of record reported in since 1973. In 1982, the increase in LDS children of record was 124,000. Since then the increase of children of record has progressively declined in spite of increasing LDS membership in high birthrate regions of the world, particularly Latin America. Recent years demonstrate annual increases of LDS children of record between 0.6 percent and 0.8 percent of overall membership.

The increase of children of record is not the same as a birthrate but provides the only public indicator of LDS growth through births. The annual increase of LDS children of record between 0.61 and 0.82 per 100 members weigh in between 28 and 37 percent of the average world birthrate of 2.18 per 100,[29] corroborating LDS activity estimates in the low thirtieth percentiles. Per capita figures for LDS children of record relative to total membership weigh in at 40 to 52 percent of the annual per capita birthrate in communist China (1.57 births per 100), 50 to 68 percent of that in a stagnant industrial nation failing to reproduce itself (France 1.168 births per 100), one-fifth that of Pakistan (3.43 births per 100), and one-sixth to one-eighth of the birthrate in the Gaza Strip or Mali (4.5 to 5.0 births per 100).[30] These statistics demonstrate that we are facing a crisis of low natural LDS growth.

The category of “baptisms of children of record” (children on membership rolls who go on to be baptized) was dropped from LDS statistical reports after 1997. A review of statistics from years when both figures were published demonstrates that the number of children of record baptized is always significantly less than the increase of children of record. The unreported discrepancy between the increase of children of record and those that go on to baptism suggests that the crisis of low natural LDS growth is even more severe than that suggested by children of record statistics alone.

The Church reported 11,315 U.S. units at year-end 1999. The 2000 Glenmary study reported data from 11,515 U.S. LDS congregations, so we can be confident that Glenmary investigators were given membership figures from virtually all U.S. congregations. The study’s definition of “adherents” included members age fourteen and up, regardless of activity status. The Glenmary study found 4,224,026 individuals age fourteen and above on U.S. LDS congregational rolls, compared to 5,113,409 U.S. members at year-end 1999, leaving 889,383 LDS members (17.9 percent of the total) unaccounted.[31] This difference presumably represents unbaptized children of record under age eight and baptized youth between ages eight and thirteen. Bennion and Young’s figure of children of record representing 15 percent of LDS members in the early 1990s would lead us to expect approximately 765,000 children of record in the United States, leaving only 124,000 membership records for the entire number of baptized youth between ages eight and thirteen—a number which seems unrealistically low. Data harmonization suggests that the number of U.S. children of record has declined to closer to 10 percent of total membership. The lack of any additional buffer suggests that Glenmary statistics almost certainly include LDS “lost address file” members not affiliated with any congregation, although it is not clear why this is the case for a study reportedly based on congregational data alone.

The above is taken from an interesting website (not official LDS) at: http://cumorah.com/lawoftheharvest.html#_Toc162146549

Anyway, overall LDS church growth has ranged from 3-5% in the last few years. Births count for a small portion of that growth (from a little more than a quarter to less than a sixth of overall growth). The vast majority of growth is via converts.

[planet]

Annie,

I wonder of this is where the Jewish aspect figures (anyone else out here can comment too?) into my perspective in that the long traditions of Judaism are based on a scholarly social structure. The traditions are largely governing. The talmud covers laws and behavior. I suppose you could look at it like you would shia (sp) law. The Muslim and Jewish faiths share in common, among other things, a long standing set of laws that outdate modern ones. I'm not saying that we should return to the days of sacrifice. But the history of the culture of Judaism makes it hard for me to separate religion and politics. Thus is my own conflict with how to practice my faith. Yes, I agree motives and means differ between secular governance and religious doctrine as to how to protect the people. Isn't governance by faith attempting to protect the souls of the poeple as well as provide a safe environment. Ok, don't come at me with all of the wars and violence of the OT.

I would say that the law is not going to deter someone from murder without their own moral law/guidance telling them to obey. And I would think that this is part of the PTSD problem we have with soldiers as well. They follow the law by killing, but what does the experience do to them, to their soul? This is why it is so critical to feel like you are right in what you do when you are breaking a moral law.

TR: Learn something new every day....

[planet]

I think the Pope was referring to the temptation to strengthen faith with power. You cannot force people to live morally. It has to come from within to be sustainable.

Agreed, but then can't it work the other way? Power can be reinforced with faith. This is what I see as the alter ego and evil side of the church/state mix. Not that God's laws are being instituted as human ones, but that lust for power is being backed up by claims of faith.
**

[planet]

Sorry. You know that's me. I should just call you on a call night when the kids are all sleeping for this conversation.

But to bring it back on point, first, I'm not sure it is just liberal religions losing members. Why isn't Catholicism growing as fast as the Mormon church? Does this mean that the Catholic church will grow with more conservative leadership? Have the numbers of athiests grown and shouldn't that stat be included? IE; people found something to believe in that is not religious in nature. Then wouldn't we be comparing what it is about athiests and conservatives vs liberal beliefs that cause the 'extremes' to be growing?

The overlap of governance and faith is very significant if the reason the Baptist and Mormon church are growing is because they provide the guidance people are looking for. Not predigested kitsch, IMHO, but what people feel in their hearts is true and should be the way it is.

[rainbabies]

deleted...typed during a moment.