Same Gun Dealer Sold to NIU and VT campus shooters

ONLINE! Why on earth can you buy a gun ONLINE???

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/1 ... 87050.html

[Rapunzel]

Re: Same Gun Dealer Sold to NIU and VT campus shooters

It doesn't matter if the guns were bought online or in person - these killers wanted to kill and a gun was their choice of weapon.

It is a pretty weird coincidence that the same person sold to both of these individuals. The most likely explanation is that the two frequented similar websites where this other person's gun sales were talked about or advertised (via the advertising engines that automatically generate ads based on words used in the forum).

Anyway, you can buy knives, cars, and many other dangerous devices online. :huh:

Now, unfortunately nobody in that auditorium (in Iowa) had a handgun to use to stop this person from shooting dozens (and killing many). Many lives could have been saved and serious injuries prevented had someone been packing and taken what was, essentially, a mass-murderer down before he could kill and maim even more. Good example of the need for concealed-carry laws.

[alison]

Re: Same Gun Dealer Sold to NIU and VT campus shooters

Oh man, I can tell you I would not be comfortable if my students had weapons in my classroom. Concealed or otherwise. A campus is no place for weapons IMO.

And to be able to buy a gun online just baffles my mind.

Re: Same Gun Dealer Sold to NIU and VT campus shooters

Now, unfortunately nobody in that auditorium (in Iowa) had a handgun to use to stop this person from shooting dozens (and killing many). Many lives could have been saved and serious injuries prevented had someone been packing and taken what was, essentially, a mass-murderer down before he could kill and maim even more. Good example of the need for concealed-carry laws.

And I'll ask again (as I did during the discussion after the Virginia Tech shootings): How or why would anyone assume that the person carrying the conceled weapon was not a part of the rampage? How are people to know who is supposed to be their savior? Imagine mulitple people with concealed weapons! It would turn into a shoot-out at the OK Corrall. Arming more people is not an answer.

Re: Same Gun Dealer Sold to NIU and VT campus shooters

Imagine mulitple people with concealed weapons! It would turn into a shoot-out at the OK Corrall. Arming more people is not an answer.

I totally agree. This is why I refuse to have a handgun in the house. Because I am jumpy and no amount of training will take that away, and I would indeed end up shooting my own husband out of sheer fear. The harder thing about this debate is how do we clean up the population with unarmed police, homes and whatnot when the general population is saturated with arms and many under the couches and beds? An unarmed individual is then at risk. Soooo how do we start anew, I think is the harder question to answer. I ... have no answer.

[GrayMatterWife]

Re: Same Gun Dealer Sold to NIU and VT campus shooters

I'm such a Texan at heart. My first thought was, "The extent of the tragedy wouldn't have happened in Texas." So many people have licensed conceal-and-carry weapons. The chance of this guy getting his as$ shot off (even though the University most likely prohibits the carrying on campus) would have been comparably high.

I have no idea what the interstate gun purchase laws are. This dealer, though, is about to be at the ugly end of a federal criminal investigation...

[PrincessFiona]

Re: Same Gun Dealer Sold to NIU and VT campus shooters

Now, unfortunately nobody in that auditorium (in Iowa) had a handgun to use to stop this person from shooting dozens (and killing many). Many lives could have been saved and serious injuries prevented had someone been packing and taken what was, essentially, a mass-murderer down before he could kill and maim even more. Good example of the need for concealed-carry laws.

And I'll ask again (as I did during the discussion after the Virginia Tech shootings): How or why would anyone assume that the person carrying the conceled weapon was not a part of the rampage? How are people to know who is supposed to be their savior? Imagine mulitple people with concealed weapons! It would turn into a shoot-out at the OK Corrall. Arming more people is not an answer.

I completely agree with you. Holy Cow...imagine the panic and bloodshed that would ensue in a situation like that! (not to mention accidental deaths by people who get in the way of a bullet trying to escape, etc)

Re: Same Gun Dealer Sold to NIU and VT campus shooters

I think there is an assumption that someone with a concealed weapon would just begin to shoot indiscriminately. The people I know who choose to carry have been very well trained, they would target the shooter and take him down. It would not be a bunch of people just shooting in every which direction. The gunman at the Colorado Springs church shootings was taken down by a woman acting as an armed volunteer. She has been credited with saving hundreds of lives.

I wouldn't assume that a person with a concealed weapon would shoot indiscriminately. The question still stands, though, if people all start "packing", and multiple people pull out weapons -- how on earth is anyone to know who "should" be carrying / shooting and who shouldn't? A moment such as that would clearly be pure chaos, and while the situation in Colorado Springs did benefit from having a 2nd licensed gun carrier on site (and wasn't she working as security?), having more appropriate gun laws where these weapons are NOT AVAILABLE to every nutcase could have prevented ANY deaths.

[Rapunzel]

Re: Same Gun Dealer Sold to NIU and VT campus shooters

Welllll, when one person starts indiscriminately shooting into a crowd it's pretty much a given that that person needs to be stopped.

Texas is the state with which I am most familiar regarding concealed carry permits. In order to obtain one of these you must take a very thorough course and be tested afterwards. You have to update your license every once in a while with additional training.

The people who have concealed carry permits are at least as well-trained as those who are given licenses to operate a much larger killer of human beings - automobiles.

I always get this undercurrent of "People are too stupid to use something dangerous" when the subject of concealed carry permits comes up. Yet, we hand out licenses for automobiles to pretty much everyone and that includes people who drink alcohol (much more likely to be drunk driving).

Abigail is right to some extent - if this had happened anywhere but a church or a school in Texas this killer would have been stopped before he could have destroyed more people's lives. Unfortunately in Texas you cannot carry protection on you - even with a permit - on government property and many churches prohibit it as well (despite the massacre that occurred in a Baptist church in Ft. Worth years ago where all it would have taken was ONE youth minister - it was youth night - to save all those whose lives were needlessly taken by one killer).

Guns are tools. And, I agree that they are tools that require education prior to their use - just as we require education prior to the use of cars.

As a college student I would have felt MUCH more comfortable knowing that my fellow students were able to protect themselves AND myself should something like that have happened when I was in college.

And, it is a fallacy to say it's like the "OK Corral". Something you must understand is that violence is much less likely to happen when a potential murderer knows that they will be stopped before they can do much of their intended damage. It's just like how the presence of a police officer has the same effect. And, the example of Great Britain (removing guns from police officers) shows that it is the gun carried by the officer that causes this effect.

This is one of those subjects that has, unfortunately, been dominated by emotions rather than logic, facts, and a rational approach. The facts and logic point to the need for concealed carry laws that have a trained, armed citizenry ready to stop mass murderers. That is the only thing that will stop this violence we are seeing in schools, malls, churches, and anywhere innocent people congregate and go about their business.

The violence stems from the person intent on actions that will kill. And, you have two options: Protect the innocent or...not. My vote is for protecting the innocent in a method that has proven it works time and time again.

[Rapunzel]

Re: Same Gun Dealer Sold to NIU and VT campus shooters

A moment such as that would clearly be pure chaos, and while the situation in Colorado Springs did benefit from having a 2nd licensed gun carrier on site (and wasn't she working as security?), having more appropriate gun laws where these weapons are NOT AVAILABLE to every nutcase could have prevented ANY deaths.

1) Yes, that is a very good instance of a normal citizen having a concealed carry permit and using her weapon to protect innocent people from being murdered.

2) We do have laws that prevent those with a previous criminal record from obtaining guns. However, a person who has no sign of mental illness and has never had a criminal record will not be screened out. This is an example of the fact that we cannot always control everything in life. Bad people still try to get away with doing bad things and may not be thwarted before they start doing those bad things. In those instances it is very important that we have safe-guards in place (such as an armed and trained citizenry) that will take into account this reality that life can be unexpected.

[Vanquisher]

Re: Same Gun Dealer Sold to NIU and VT campus shooters

I think the 2nd ammendment is old, archaic, and needs to go. I think that the original intent of the second ammendment is being abused by groups such as the NRA to further their cause. I fundamentally disagree with the rationale of stopping guns with more guns. There need to be no guns. You are more likely to have a gun stolen from your home and used in the commission of a crime against you or someone else than to use it to protect yourself.

Cars are not the same things. Yes, they can cause harm, but it isn't their intended purpose, unlike a gun. A gun is meant to kill things. Why do we continue to rally for the use of such things?

Re: Same Gun Dealer Sold to NIU and VT campus shooters

And, it is a fallacy to say it's like the "OK Corral". Something you must understand is that violence is much less likely to happen when a potential murderer knows that they will be stopped before they can do much of their intended damage. It's just like how the presence of a police officer has the same effect. And, the example of Great Britain (removing guns from police officers) shows that it is the gun carried by the officer that causes this effect.

I would say people with "concealed" weapons would not present the deterent as an actual police officer. Therefore the idea of several "normal" students whipping out guns would most likely only add to the chaos.

Re: Same Gun Dealer Sold to NIU and VT campus shooters

I agree that I remember hearing that in the C Springs church shooting, the woman who killed the shooter was acting as security and perhaps dressed in a way to show that.

[alison]

Re: Same Gun Dealer Sold to NIU and VT campus shooters

I think the 2nd ammendment is old, archaic, and needs to go. I think that the original intent of the second ammendment is being abused by groups such as the NRA to further their cause. I fundamentally disagree with the rationale of stopping guns with more guns. There need to be no guns. You are more likely to have a gun stolen from your home and used in the commission of a crime against you or someone else than to use it to protect yourself.

Cars are not the same things. Yes, they can cause harm, but it isn't their intended purpose, unlike a gun. A gun is meant to kill things. Why do we continue to rally for the use of such things?

Ditto. I hate that I gave a demonstration today on how one can successfully wedge a table against a door in order to make a barricade.

[PrincessFiona]

Re: Same Gun Dealer Sold to NIU and VT campus shooters

And, it is a fallacy to say it's like the "OK Corral". Something you must understand is that violence is much less likely to happen when a potential murderer knows that they will be stopped before they can do much of their intended damage. It's just like how the presence of a police officer has the same effect. And, the example of Great Britain (removing guns from police officers) shows that it is the gun carried by the officer that causes this effect.

I would say people with "concealed" weapons would not present the deterent as an actual police officer. Therefore the idea of several "normal" students whipping out guns would most likely only add to the chaos.

I agree again.