edited

obviously I was over thinking this morning. sigh... it's been that kind of day

[madeintaiwan]

Re: edited

You're so funny, I was going to respond to your questions, but now they're gone....

I don't think there is much to debate about it. I think it comes down to your own personal thoughts and comfortableness (is that a word?).

I can see how people could feel that taken out of context the book is loaded with stereotypes and can be seen as racist. But given it's historical context, I think the book and the writer's writing style and choice of dialect is what it is. We have books that use similar dialect and Jase has never really said anything about it. I imagine if he ever did, I would explain the way it was back then (although I am pretty sure we've already had that talk) and that people just spoke like that back then and that in some places in this country people still speak like that (regardless of race). I think the language used in books such as the one you mentioned is not awkward ( as in I don't think about it) to myself because I don't see the inability to speak "proper" English as a sign of being unintelligent or racially derived therefore it doesn't make me feel uneasy. It's just a book where the characters in it happen to speak differently than I do. I am sure this is credited to my growing up with a mother who still speaks broken English and being around her many friends as well as having friends from different countries who speak with different accents and sometimes/many times slaughter the English language. I sometimes do it out of habit from hearing certain words in the wrong tenses from my mom. She frequently uses ed instead of ing or vice versa-- "I was so exciting."

Obviously, like all aspects of parenting, it's a very personal choice. We are very open with our kids. A couple of years ago I had to put the smack down on my little brother because he thought he was cool (and smarter than our mom) and could make fun of our mom and not listen to her because she has an accent and asks for help if she doesn't know a word or can't find the right words to say something. He was having some issues with being half Chinese and fitting in at school. After I smacked him down, my step father "smacked" him down, it became a non-issue. I guess my point is that you have to decide what is acceptable to you and how things make you feel and then pass that on to your kids (sometimes it's "PC" and sometimes it's not). I don't think that a book like Flossie ( By the way, I have never read it, we have the Chinese red riding hood, Lon PoPo) has to be a source of shame or putting down another race/culture or whatever.

Anyways, I know you edited your post, but those were my thoughts about it...off to cook dinner and finish laundry.

[Rapunzel]

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I wish you hadn't erased your post!

I'm really interested in what you had to say....

[poky]

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I was also planning to reply, but wanted to give it some more thought. My gut instinct is that if you explain, as Davita suggested, that it's the way some people spoke (and some still do), and that it's just a different dialect of English, and not "wrong", or even "less intelligent", it should be fine. It's even true, but I totally understand your hesitation. There's a fine line between accepting a representation of a different dialect and perpetuating a harmful stereotype, and I'm not very clear on exactly where that is, either.

Flossie and the Fox

LOL, I thought maybe it was to loaded of a question to keep up, and I'm not into stirring the pot, it's just a book that was on the mind.

The book is Flossie & the Fox.

It's a book about a little black girl who leaves her home to take a bag of eggs to another home that didn't have eggs due to the chickens being scared by the fox. The mom tells the little girl to be careful as she takes the eggs to the family as the fox really wants them and he is sly. As she leaves the fox meet her and tells her he is a fox and she should be scared. The argues with the fox telling him she didn't believe him, that he could be a fox or cat and so forth. Then when they get to the house she is to go to, the hounds come out and chase him and he says "The hounds know who I am!", and the girl says "I know", smiles and walks away safe. So the book is about a smart girl who out thinks the fox.

The part I was unsure about was the way the book was written. The author's note says about her family's gift of story telling and about her grandfather:

"He was a master storyteller who charmed his audience with humorous stories told in the rich colorful dialect of the rural South. I never wanted to forget them. So, it is through me that my family's storytelling legacy lives on."

The book is written in this dialect:

"Take these to Miz Viola over at the Mc-Cutchin Place," she say reaching behind her and handing Flossie a basket of fresh eggs. "Seem like they been troubled by a fox. Miz Viola's chickens be so scared, they can't even now lay a stone." Big Mama clicked her teeth and shook her head.


My questions where, is it wrong to read a book of a certain culture/heritage to a child who is of an opposite heritage, in the manner that the book if not explained could reinforce old sterotypes and a possible racist overtones. Obviously the book is not racist, it's an oral tradition of a certain culture. And Davita, I wrote that is seemed sounded uneducated, and meant that to a child who doesn't understand that broken English isn't a sign of uneducation for all people (as in your mother), is this reinforcing a old sterotype. Also to add that is could come off as uneducated in this book as it's obviously a family that is from a rural/farm community - so it seems to imply a uneducated family - of course that is reaching, but it's an impression that can be taken. And to me this isn't just about this book (which was a book of mine as a child) but made me think of oral traditional stories written from Scottish and Irish heritage and the Appalachians. Listening to the local music here of the Appalachians is SO intreging to me as the sounds the create are so unique. Anyway so the questions where:

Is it wrong to read a book from a certian heritage to a child of a different heritage if the book could be seen as an reinforcement of old sterotypes?

Is it only ok to read these stories to a child who comes from that heritage and can understand the connotation?

Or does is not matter, it's a cute story, and if your family obviously values different cultures it wouldn't be taken anything more than a good book, and that to honor the authors intent, it is good to share with your child.

To me, I am inclined to say it shouldn't matter, but then again I want to be cautious on how other races are portrayed as our family has several members who are either adopted or married into the family coming from various other races. So this is more of a brain teaser, how do we address these issue with young children, my son is almost 6.


So those are the questions

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Also talking about cultures and dialects:

Is the rural south dialect where ebonics is dirived from? This has no baring on the thought of a certain type of speach making someone intelligent or not (there are obviously dumb butt white people who can speak "proper English") - but just one of curiousity.

Did anyone see the documentary from PBS of the dialects of the USA? It was SOOOOO interesting. The most intreging was the Creole in LA, some people you seriously needed flash cards to understand them. My dad loves the Creole and their boudin sausage, LOL. He goes down there just for the dang stuff, says there is nothing like it anywhere, and has my DH hooked to it too.

Btw Davita he's off to China next week for business, and he is not so great with chopsticks

http://www.pbs.org/speak/

http://www.shoppbs.org/product/index.js ... age=search

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LOL another funny thought on English dialects is when our exchange students first came to live with us, poor things were taught Orthodox English and found out 25% of their words learned were NOT the American meaning, LOL. It brought up several very funny moments, I seem to remember asked where the lavatory was and sending her to the laundry machine

[madeintaiwan]

Re: Flossie and the Fox

Anyway so the questions where:

Is it wrong to read a book from a certian heritage to a child of a different heritage if the book could be seen as an reinforcement of old sterotypes?

I googled the book, as I have never read it before, and I really couldn't find much in regards to negative reactions from it. From my understanding this book really does not seem to be loaded with stereotypes. The fact of the matter is that during the time period that the book is dated that is how people spoke, dress, and acted. If it is your belief that people who behave in such ways are viewed as uneducated (which to me there is a difference between being uneducated and unintelligent) then perhaps sharing a story (along with your beliefs and feelings) such as Flossie would perpetuate that belief for your child.

I personally don't feel this way about this book or any of the books we have that use this dialect because I don't see their behaviors as stereotypical or a negative reflection of black culture.

Is it only ok to read these stories to a child who comes from that heritage and can understand the connotation?

Again, I don't think that many black people feel fired up about this book, probably because they don't see the negative connotations. It is a story about a "strong witty" black girl. She wasn't a victim and there doesn't seem to be any negative racial implications other than the dialect (which to me really isn't one) which the dialect use was the author's intent.

Or does is not matter, it's a cute story, and if your family obviously values different cultures it wouldn't be taken anything more than a good book, and that to honor the authors intent, it is good to share with your child.

This would be my take. And if your child asks why they speak differently (a child stating that the characters sound uneducated or unintelligent is unlikely as those are concepts learned from an adult or another child who has learned it from an adult) I would simply explain to him that that is how people spoke back then, period end of sentence.

To me, I am inclined to say it shouldn't matter, but then again I want to be cautious on how other races are portrayed as our family has several members who are either adopted or married into the family coming from various other races.

Again, I strongly feel that in this case it is just a book. The story itself is a good story with good "lessons." The characters in the story just happen to be black and speak differently. I think that overanalyzing race can sometimes end up doing more harm than good. I could see if it was a story that was actually portraying black people as unintelligent or as "bad" people, but it's not. Ultimately, children learn concepts like uneducated, unintelligent, less than, not as good as me from adults. Things just seem different to kids, we give them the why. To me being cautious/aware of race, culture, and religion is simply about being respectful. If you are nice to me and I am nice to you, nothing else should matter. When I hear someone who doesn't speak "proper" English I don't think that they are unintelligent. It is not something to be made fun of or for me to think that I am "better" than them because of it. There are unintelligent, uneducated, and not nice people in this world and they come from every race, culture, and religion. I would explain to my child that it is what it is-- people speak and act differently. Doing these things are not racially derived.

So this is more of a brain teaser, how do we address these issue with young children, my son is almost 6.

Again it comes down to your own beliefs. When your child ASKS the question, you have to decide what your WHY is. I don't think you have to go around pointing out differences---to me that is my idea of being hypersensitive. Not everything needs to be labeled and shoved into a box. Kids as young as 4 can see the differences. There is NOTHING wrong with differences. Kids just take things in and for what they are, differences. If he asks you about it or appears to be confused then I would feel it is appropriate to tell him your why.

When Jase was 3 or so we were playing in a park and this kid in a really mean tone kept calling him "chocolate boy" and wouldn't let him on the play structure. Jase was really upset, not because the kid was calling him "chocolate boy," but because the boy was being mean to him. He did question why he was calling him "chocolate boy" because he didn't get it. Hah Hah chocolate boy? Ultimately he was upset that the boy, unprovoked, was teasing him and preventing him from playing at the playground. I told him that the boy was just being mean (there are mean people out there) and that it was too bad for that little boy because instead of being mean he could be having fun playing instead. I also told him that it was ok to be upset about it (maybe it made him sad), but he shouldn't let people who chose to behave like that to ruin his day, there are plenty of other people in this world to play with. And that it was absolutely unacceptable for him to be mean back to the boy and that he needed to move on and play with someone else.

[Michele]

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The most intreging was the Creole in LA, some people you seriously needed flash cards to understand them.

Just wanted to say I mistook someone for mentally challenged when I first met her because of her accent....but really she was just 'coonass.' (her word for being Cajun)