interesting.....

[rainbabies]

to say the least. what ever works, i guess.

http://www.advocate.com/exclusive_detail_ektid52947.asp

part of the article:

Thomas Beatie is a transgender male and he's 22 weeks pregnant. Thomas still has a vagina, but he's legally male. He shares his life with his legal wife, Nancy. Thomas gave a first person account to the Advocate on how he came to be pregnant with a baby girl.

Thomas writes, "Ten years ago, when Nancy and I became a couple, the idea of us having a child was more dream than plan. I always wanted to have children. However, due to severe endometriosis 20 years ago, Nancy had to undergo a hysterectomy and is unable to carry a child. But after the success of our custom screen-printing business and a move from Hawaii to the Pacific Northwest two years ago, the timing finally seemed right. I stopped taking my bimonthly testosterone injections. It had been roughly eight years since I had my last menstrual cycle, so this wasn’t a decision that I took lightly. My body regulated itself after about four months, and I didn’t have to take any exogenous estrogen, progesterone, or fertility drugs to aid my pregnancy."

One year and many doctors later, Thomas got pregnant with triplets, but the pregnancy was ectopic. He eventually lost his embryos and his right fallopian tube. His second pregnancy has been a success and he's due on July 3, 2008.

He said that not many people in their community know about his pregnancy. He said they have "begun experiencing opposition from people who are upset by our situation. Doctors have discriminated against us, turning us away due to their religious beliefs. Health care professionals have refused to call me by a male pronoun or recognize Nancy as my wife. Receptionists have laughed at us. Friends and family have been unsupportive; most of Nancy’s family doesn’t even know I’m transgender."

[MDPhDWife]

Re: interesting.....

Very cool. It's a shame that the hate from others runs so deep though. Live and let live.

[Rapunzel]

Re: interesting.....

I don't know that I would classify it as "hateful" that medical people are calling this person by the female pronoun. After all, she's using her female reproductive system to produce a child.

By medical definition a pregnancy cannot occur in a male. It is a completely female condition. Therefore, factually speaking, this person is (at least for the present) a female using her female body parts to do something biologically completely female in humans: bear a child.

This person is choosing to be insulted because many are obviously confused over whether she wants to be female or male. She is choosing to be insulted by the simple medical fact that she is female (assuming her chromosomes are XY which is, by genetic definnition, female as well as the reasoning in the above paragraph).

I can completely understand others' confusion on this, though, particularly those close to this person. After all, this person has rejected their gender to an extreme point. But, now, this same person is embracing a condition wholly inherent to the gender which they previously rejected. Now, that is confusing!

Emotions aside, being insulted by medical facts or finding hatred in others' understandable confusion over this situation is a bit...dense on the part of this person. I would think that this person, of all people, would have a clue as to the utter chaos that this new decision would cause in his/her own family, never mind everyone else in the world (particularly the medical community)!

[DCJenn]

Re: interesting.....

Sounds like this is a very much wanted child. Wish I could say the same for all babies.

J.

[poky]

Re: interesting.....

TR, he may still have the equipment to bear a child, but legally and mentally/emotionally, he is male, he WANTS to be male, and there's no confusion about about that. He's taken a drastic step to get a child without adopting that, granted, would not be possible in most circumstances, for most couples. That doesn't mean he wants to be female.

If these medical professionals are calling him "she/her" deliberately, AFTER being asked politely not to, it *is* hateful. Confusion and occasional slip-ups are one thing, but my guess is they've run into plenty of true hatred. This is a unique situation. Frankly, I hope it's not the last of its kind, and I hope our society can learn to be more tolerant.

It's unfortunate that his wife's family didn't know he was TG, and that they're not getting much support. I have mixed feelings about "stealth" TG people; it's a hell of a lot easier for them in general, but they're certainly not helping raise awareness or promote tolerance (not that it's anyone's duty to do that, but it would be nice if these things were better understood by the general public), and it leaves them out in the cold when they *are* outed.

[Vishenka69]

Re: interesting.....

While I'm sort of ooged out by it, I have to admit I wish DH could carry our babies!!!

I couldn't agree more, I can't believe we haven't scientifically advanced that far yet.

[GrayMatterWife]

Re: interesting.....

From a legal perspective, this is simple. In most states (all, that I've heard of, anyhow), for biological determinations, your gender has nothing to do with what hangs between your legs or what exists between your ears. You can adjust, remove, add on, or otherwise accessorize to your heart's content. And you can go from Mary to Mark and back again. But, in the end, your gender is your chromosomes. You're XX? You're a girl. You're XY? You're a boy. From a legal perspective, there is no complex issue here. You call her a "she" and there is nothing aberrational about her condition.

That's why inmates who've undergone gender reassignment surgery (transgendered) are sent to prisons with inmates of their birth gender--not their medically adjusted gender. And most prisons also allow transsexual inmates to maintain their hormone therapy treatments while incarcerated--so they continue to manifest (ordinarily) female characteristics, while being housed in a male prison.

Re: interesting.....

Very cool. It's a shame that the hate from others runs so deep though. Live and let live.

I'll admit that the whole idea makes me uncomfortable (as in - harder for me to grasp), but I certianly agree -- live and let live. We have a transgendered woman living on the corner of our street, and I'm always angry w/myself for how I try to steal glimpses, etc. But I would NEVER, EVER be one of the people who try to run such folks out of town, or go out of their way to say / do things to make them uncomfortable. I just think it's a natural curiosity. I guess b/c I'm generally crunchy, I felt as though I should just be able to say "it's all good" and invite them to dinner, etc. While in no way would I ever say "that woman can never be in my home!" , I know that I would not be able to get the 'whole transgendered thing' out of my head while socializing with them. I have no such issues w/gay couples ... and hopefully in some years my head will come out of the cave in relation to this.

[GrayMatterWife]

Re: interesting.....

Very cool. It's a shame that the hate from others runs so deep though. Live and let live.

I'll admit that the whole idea makes me uncomfortable (as in - harder for me to grasp), but I certianly agree -- live and let live. We have a transgendered woman living on the corner of our street, and I'm always angry w/myself for how I try to steal glimpses, etc. But I would NEVER, EVER be one of the people who try to run such folks out of town, or go out of their way to say / do things to make them uncomfortable. I just think it's a natural curiosity. I guess b/c I'm generally crunchy, I felt as though I should just be able to say "it's all good" and invite them to dinner, etc. While in no way would I ever say "that woman can never be in my home!" , I know that I would not be able to get the 'whole transgendered thing' out of my head while socializing with them. I have no such issues w/gay couples ... and hopefully in some years my head will come out of the cave in relation to this.

I cannot imagine what it must be like to psychologically experience yourself as having the other gender. I mean, to feel deeply and fundamentally mismatched in your own skin. I don't even like wearing other people's shoes. It must be incredibly painful and self-alienating.

[poky]

Re: interesting.....

From a legal perspective, this is simple. In most states (all, that I've heard of, anyhow), for biological determinations, your gender has nothing to do with what hangs between your legs or what exists between your ears. You can adjust, remove, add on, or otherwise accessorize to your heart's content. And you can go from Mary to Mark and back again. But, in the end, your gender is your chromosomes. You're XX? You're a girl. You're XY? You're a boy. From a legal perspective, there is no complex issue here. You call her a "she" and there is nothing aberrational about her condition.

AFAIK, intersexed people still aren't assigned gender based on chromosomes (necessarily), and chromosomes aren't nearly as cut+dried as you make it out to be there. There are plenty of variations. What would you do then?

Gender in this society is what you live as/present as, and, legally, what your documentation (birth certificate, driver's license) say. This pregnant guy is legally male, lives as a male in all ways except for his reproductive equipment, and you would call him "her"? Why?

That's why inmates who've undergone gender reassignment surgery (transgendered) are sent to prisons with inmates of their birth gender--not their medically adjusted gender. And most prisons also allow transsexual inmates to maintain their hormone therapy treatments while incarcerated--so they continue to manifest (ordinarily) female characteristics, while being housed in a male prison.

"Transgendered" is not exactly the same as "undergone gender reassignment surgery"; plenty of transgendered people never have surgery. From what I can gather, prison policy is up to the prison/state, and is completely separate from considerations in other situations (like medical receptionists refusing to recognize this guy's wife as his wife, simply because he's the one that's pregnant).

[spotty_dog]

Re: interesting.....

Maybe it would help to clarify the vocabulary we're using. I didn't take those fruity gender studies classes but I knew plenty of people who did and I think I can lay out the basic concepts here.

Sex is determined by your chromosomes. Most XX people have the gonads and secondary sex characteristics of the female sex. Most XY people have male parts. But this isn't always the case, and there are intersexed individuals with kind of confusing naughty bits.

Gender is a fluid, socially defined concept. You can be a boy, or a girl, or something in between, or in some cultures you can be a third gender that's something else entirely. That's what we're referring to when we say man or woman, him or her. It's strictly a cultural construct. Being a man or a woman is thus completely separate from having a penis or vagina.

Anyway. Calling this guy she/her and insisting he shave his facial hair had no bearing on his medical treatment and strikes me as completely unprofessional, not to mention obtuse. But I'm with DCJenn: the bottom line is, this baby is so very wanted and that's an amazing and wonderful thing.

[mommax3]

Re: interesting.....

Gender in this society is what you live as/present as, and, legally, what your documentation (birth certificate, driver's license) say. This pregnant guy is legally male, lives as a male in all ways except for his reproductive equipment, and you would call him "her"? Why?

Because men can't have babies, that's why. You can tap dance around that all you want, but at the end of the day, that is the fact of the matter.

I don't understand anyone being hateful about it, though. As Jenn said, a wanted baby is a wonderful thing. But I can imagine that in an OB practice where they NEVER, EVER, take care of male patients, using "he" to describe a pregnant patient would seem ludicrous.

Sally

[GrayMatterWife]

Re: interesting.....

Maybe it would help to clarify the vocabulary we're using. I didn't take those fruity gender studies classes but I knew plenty of people who did and I think I can lay out the basic concepts here.

Sex is determined by your chromosomes. Most XX people have the gonads and secondary sex characteristics of the female sex. Most XY people have male parts. But this isn't always the case, and there are intersexed individuals with kind of confusing naughty bits.

Gender is a fluid, socially defined concept. You can be a boy, or a girl, or something in between, or in some cultures you can be a third gender that's something else entirely. That's what we're referring to when we say man or woman, him or her. It's strictly a cultural construct. Being a man or a woman is thus completely separate from having a penis or vagina.

Anyway. Calling this guy she/her and insisting he shave his facial hair had no bearing on his medical treatment and strikes me as completely unprofessional, not to mention obtuse. But I'm with DCJenn: the bottom line is, this baby is so very wanted and that's an amazing and wonderful thing.

These definitions show the problem that currently exists between social understanding of gender and the legal understanding of gender. There is a growing acceptance that gender to be a primarily self-defined concept--that is, your gender is what you personally identify with, not what your DNA says. The law, however, does not care about "gender" because it treats gender as sex. It has caused big headaches in the past decade or so divorce law, family law, etc. There is a case out of Texas in which it was determined that a couple could not divorce, because they were never legally married--because the couple was a man and a transgendered woman. Regardless of the transgendered woman's asserted gender, there was no right to marry because, under the law, they were two men. Which means they could not divorce. And there was no right to the "marital" property, etc.

Interestingly, applying this legal premise, a lesbian woman and a lesbian, transgendered man (that is, a straight man who underwent surgery to become a female, and post-surgery, is still attracted to women) can marry. So I guess gay marriage is completely illegal in Texas!

That's a gotcha the legislature didn't think of!

[poky]

Re: interesting.....

Because men can't have babies, that's why. You can tap dance around that all you want, but at the end of the day, that is the fact of the matter.

Except...one is.

Maybe I read too much science fiction, but is it really *so* threatening to people's world-view that someone who is male in every respect except reproductive equipment is able to carry a baby that we should insist on disrespecting him by referring to him with the wrong pronoun?

Is being able to have babies what defines us as female? I don't personally think so; it's just part of it, and none of it is absolute. To me.

[poky]

Re: interesting.....

Interestingly, applying this legal premise, a lesbian woman and a lesbian, transgendered man (that is, a straight man who underwent surgery to become a female, and post-surgery, is still attracted to women) can marry. So I guess gay marriage is completely illegal in Texas!

Right. But that varies by state; there are states that allow you to legally change your gender...which is why this guy is legally married to a woman. He's not a woman who happens to look/act/dress like a guy, he is, legally, male.

And from what I've read, sexual attraction/identity usually doesn't change with hormones/surgery.