For those of you who support Obama...

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

Isn't there a place where they give you the bottomline on all this? If joe schmoe makes x amount of $, then here is your tax rate.... I need the platforms for dummies brochure. Just call me lazy. I really don't enjoy surfing through all this stuff, but I honestly keep changing my mind about who to vote for because I don't like either candidate. I am also not a party voter.

The link from spotty_dog does this for different income levels.

[SuzySunshine]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

And finally, I don't believe that it ultimately makes one iota of difference what a presidential candidate proposes for something as detailed as tax policy. Once it gets through congress, it won't look anything like it looks now. And it might not ever get through.

This is an interesting point and I'm sure it applies to all of their plans so what the hell are we supposed to vote for? This time of year just frustrates me.

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

And finally, I don't believe that it ultimately makes one iota of difference what a presidential candidate proposes for something as detailed as tax policy. Once it gets through congress, it won't look anything like it looks now. And it might not ever get through.

And this is EXACTLY how I feel. I have appreciated reading as Angie and Nellie dissect all of this, but honestly I don't believe it would make it through in a 55% form. Let alone the realization earlier in the thread that the 55% quote is inaccurate.

I say vote based on who you want as our face to the world, creating much of our foreign policy (as that doesn't go through congress *most* of the time), AND picking the next several Supremes.

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

Yes, but I still can't noodle out who that would be. I don't want McCain picking Supremes, but I also don't think Obama has any strength or much capability for foreign policy.

While Obama doesn't have much in the way of experience in foreign policy, I trust him to choose good advisors and actually listen to them. I think knowing your weaknesses and choosing strong people to help fill that gap shows good judgement. I'd certianly rather that to a person who thinks they know it all. After all - what's to know if the solution is to always blow stuff up?

[Momo]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

I was posting @ thye same time as Jenn P...her's showed up and mine didn't ...anyway here's what I said


I feel Obama's ability to LISTEN to top notch advisers, that can assist him in his building of a foreign policy team, greatly helps to alleviate my concerns on his lack of foreign policy. As far as nominating SCJ I def would prefer him over McCain.

[GrayMatterWife]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

Anyone who's interested in the issue of exactly how clueless both parties are in terms of really understanding our problems in the Middle East should read Dinesh D'Souza's "The Enemy at Home." Read the portions excoriating both Reps and Dems in terms of their paralyzing ethnocentric understanding of the situation. Our lack in informative opinions and thoughts on Islam, Middle Eastern history, and current events is depressing and, in many ways, makes us look foolish and unprepared. It also discusses our complete inability to understand the passion, and true belief, inspired of radical Islam (note: not "fundamentalist" Islam, which is such a stupid term--um...all Islam is "fundamentalist," if that Western Protestant term can be cross-contextually applied). Probably a result of our own culture being nearly post-religious. (That is, we don't take religion seriously and assume that other people don't really either--they aren't committing terrorist acts because they believe that their faith compels them to do it...they are doing it because they are angry at injustices. How about this? Give people credit for acting consistently with what they believe, and stop suggesting that they have ulterior motives that YOU feel more comfort with. You can debate whether the practice of radical as versus traditional Islam is the most Koranically consistent, but stop condescending to people by not taking seriously their faith and what they believe it calls them to do! Ugh!). I have little confidence that either candidate as a particularly strong appreciation of WHY things are happening. I am just going with the guy that I believe will do the best job of protecting us--even in our ignorance of the cause and dynamics.

[PrincessFiona]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

So I have to add something here.

Yes, in many countries they pay higher taxes....I'm specifically thinking about Germany and the UK here. The difference though (and the reason that I think people were more willing to pay the money) is that everyone benefits...

Sure, we paid about 48% in Germany...but our kids would have gone to University for next to nothing (maybe $100/semester), there is universal healthcare with the option to buy an additional private plan if one wants.....if you lose your job, the govt. will retrain you at no cost to you....the benefits are there for everyone...doctor, lawyer, garbage collector, shoe salesman...you name it.

If we want to fix the problems in America, we need to not be dipping deeper into the pockets of those who have worked hard to earn more...we need to be talking about living wages, CEO's making 750% more than their employees who also receive little or no benefits etc....not how to make people pay more than their fair share in taxes. I am all for helping people...and Angie, I know you say that you live below your means etc. We also bought a house that isn't as expensive as we would have been permitted. But that extra money (percentage wise) that we are paying in taxes would be much better spent in an educational account for our children (who will probably also not benefit from financial aid) or our retirement accounts (training was a long haul. We have a lot of saving left to do and I don't expect social security to be there for us.). It's not selfish to want to hold on to our money.

As to healthcare in this country...I don't know how we will ever get to universal care because as Americans we have such high expectations. If you go to the ER with a tummy ache, you expect a CT....90 years old with Alzheimers and end stage cancer? Families expect everything possible to be done. To cover everyone in this country, doctor's salaries will probably go down and there will have to be some rationing of care.... There will have to be limits set on how much is done when care should be palliative instead of aggressive (which will be a hard sell for some), lawsuits will have to become a thing of the past...I think a lot will have to change. Morally, I feel that universal healthcare is an obligation. How we get there as a country? I don't know.

Kris

[PrincessFiona]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

BTW we don't vote based on taxes...there's way more than our personal $$ at stake

ITA agree with this. We will never vote based on taxes either. My parents taught me that a while back. There are way too many other issues that I feel are more important.

OK...so...what do we vote base on then? It stinks, but voting for Obama right now is voting against our own personal interests...for this family anyway. I'll still probably end up casting my vote for him. Thomas will vote McCain and we'll cancel each other out, so it won't matter.

It's just funny for me to hear us all talk about what we should or shouldn't vote based on. Every election cycle people vote based on their feelings about an issue or two. For some voters its as if the abortion law is the only issue. "I'd vote for the dems, but I am pro-life" or "I'd vote republican, but I'm pro-choice". We all get so caught up in the idea of being a liberal or being a neocon that issues really get tossed out the window anyway.

For all of us that vote Dem this time around, we have to know that we will be throwing an extra 15-20,000 to the govt. easily from now on. That IS an important issue for those of us with kids who may want to go to college, or for individuals with meager retirement accounts or a lot of debt from school to pay off. We will be voting aginst our own personal interests for the sake of choosing a specific party or politician and we have to live with that. Voting for "hope and change" will mean raising your taxes, less money to save for your own kid's college, your own retirement and your own personal lives for the sake of contributing to the pot here that goes for a lot of crap projects and a war that .... well... never should have taken place.

I'm just sayin... :huh:

Kris

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

I get what you are saying, Kris. I don't know who I am going to vote for. A big piece of me feels like I do a better job of spending and saving my own money than relying on the government (and yes I do appreciate the roads and schools and security). On the other hand, I agree with Allison that these increased taxes won't change what or if we eat dinner and agree with Julia that a lot of people are miserable and by comparison I don't have much to worry about.

Whether or not you are ok with another percent here or there, I think it is important to know what you are paying. I wouldn't be ok with my mortgage going up "just" a half a percentage point because it really wouldn't be that much out of my pocket. It's important to keep track of just like it is important to keep track of your civil liberties or other rights even if you aren't in need of them at the moment.

I don't want to get Social Security for retirement. I'd prefer to be left to my own devices. I think programs like that need to be scaled back for people who really need them. For health care, I think we should have high deductible plans over a certain percent federal poverty level and have some sort of extension of subsidies for health care coverage below a certain FPL. :huh: But no one is knocking on my door for my opinion.

[Phoebe]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

Nellie for President! I agree with what you are saying!

[Deebs]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

DH and I are both really torn at this point. We both consider ourselves independents, and tend to vote with the candidate whose ideals are most in line with ours. This election - it seems neither candidate. When I posed this question to DH, his response was something along the lines of not being thrilled that taxes will go up under Obama, but that he really fears he won't make any money or that inflation will be totally out of control under McCain. I guess I kind of agree with him. With the airline industry in crisis, gas and grocery prices skyrocketing, healthcare in shambles, I want someone I feel can bring some of these things back in line. Plus, I just love listening to Obama speak - I could handle four years of that.

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

It's important to keep track of just like it is important to keep track of your civil liberties or other rights even if you aren't in need of them at the moment.

Exactly.

I don't want to pay a penny more in taxes. We're already in the highest bracket & it's a true burden for us (b/c I believe the threshold for "wealthy" is far too low). BUT ... as Angie said, if I'm paying crazy taxes anyway, I'd like to know that there's a chance my tax dollars are going towards something I consider worthwhile.

[spotty_dog]

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

If he wins the presidency, I'm hoping that whoever chose Obama's entrance music during a primary victory over Clinton to be Jay-Z's "99 Problems (But a Bitch Ain't One)" isn't someone he'd choose for his cabinet.

Secretary of Theme Music?

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

Warning...tangent...

Angie's stadium naming example has been on my mind for the last day or so. The branding of everything drives me crazy. Anything that doesn't move is potential commercial space it seems. Maybe things that do move (other than the buses that are already covered in ads) are next -- how much could I get to be branded with a brand?

I got to thinking about stadiums in Denver. In the late 80s or early 90s, some group of people wanted to bring major league baseball to Denver (now the Colorado Rockies). Denver didn't have a suitable venue for a team and the city didn't have the funds to just build one. The solution was to put a sales tax increase on the ballots of Denver and the surrounding counties to increase the sales tax rate by 0.1% which would be earmarked for the construction of a dedicated baseball stadium. I dont' recall the specifics but the increase would sunset either after sufficient funds were raised or after a certain number of years (or maybe whichever came first). It passed, a team was secured, and now the Colorado Rockies play at Coors Field. I'm not sure of the politics or reason behind the naming. My understanding was that the tax revenues brought in enough to build the stadium.

Not to be outdone, the Broncos decided they wanted a new stadium too. Mile High Stadium was in good condition but wasn't "commercially viable" -- I think that was the term. The team owner had a little tantrum that included threatening to move the team. Conveniently, there was a sales tax increase of 0.1% that had recently expired and that everyone was used to paying so it was voted on to extend it. Another new stadium paid for by the taxpayer. The stadium was rebuilt right next to the old one and....Invesco Field opened. Again, I don't know if the city fell short or if the naming rights were part of the financing plan all along but a taxpayer funded stadium still ended up branded -- eta: the naming rates "reduced the taxpayer bill" but I believe that was after the initial funding plan and tax increase. The Denver Post was so annoyed by this that for several years after the paper continued to print the name as Mile High Stadium. :> (The Broncos do bring a certain amount of money and attention to the city, I suppose, but I would have been happy to tell Pat Bowlen and his team good riddance).

Re: For those of you who support Obama...

Personally, I would like to see all candidates for national offices wear Nascar-like jumpsuits with patches showing the name of every company and special interest group who has donated to their campaigns.

:>