Pelosi misrepresents the Catholic Faith

[Sheherezade]

Re: Pelosi misrepresents the Catholic Faith

I can't get to the website that Suzy posted - but I thought the reference was to a tubal pregnancy. What do you do? If the pregnancy is in the fallopian tube, it isn't viable and the pregnancy is life-threatening/fetrility threatening to mom. Can you "remove" it or is that abortive too? Obviously, this would be occurring very early in a pregnancy, but if life starts at conception than the tubal pregnancy becomes an issue as well.

[mommax3]

Re: Pelosi misrepresents the Catholic Faith

The whole "contraception as abortifacient" point is a good one. I am more "catholic" on this than DH, who (obviously) has to deal with all of this in practice, not just theory. I know there are times when he feels he choses the lesser of two evils, and I do think that is due to the world we live in. There are lots of hard questions surrounding this issue and I don't pretend to have the answers to all of them.

I am really impressed by the tone of this debate!

Re: Pelosi misrepresents the Catholic Faith

As a side note, another Catholic resident worked it out with the program/other residents so she wouldn't have to do tubals anymore. I don't know what the case was against tubals, but I admire her willingness to say she wasn't comfortable with the procedure. She apparently wouldn't make as good a politician as Pelosi is trying to be.

a tubal is a type of birth control (obviously .) i believe the church is against ANY type...yes???? :huh:

Ok - sorry (and this reference - above - was about tubal ligations). I was confusing the guidelines on birth control with the ones on infertility treatments, where some are ok and some aren't. (For example, Clomid would be ok, but intrauterine insemination wouldn't because it interferes with the, uh, "act." Correct me if I'm wrong.) At one time I worked at a Catholic hospital where there were detailed instructions for physicians about what was ok or not - but I don't remember the details well. DH & I actually took a Natural Family Planning course at a Catholic Church one year. This is acceptable birth control, but maybe the only acceptable form.

Back to tubal pregnancies... The double effect (only treating the mother, allowing the treatment to indirectly end the pregnancy) is a way to get around the "abortion" dilemma while saving the mother's life. But again, if you treat an ectopic as an "infected tube" where a section of tube has to be removed - as it sometimes does - you damage fertility. That tube is gone. Sometimes the embryo can just be removed (direct abortion), preserving the tube, but this wouldn't be allowed in a double effect scenario. Maybe reduced fertility is a small price to pay for a clean conscience with regard to a set of beliefs. And maybe this would be one of those areas where "the couple must become informed, actively seek divine guidance, and follow their well-formed conscience."

The whole "contraception as abortifacient" point is a good one. I am more "catholic" on this than DH, who (obviously) has to deal with all of this in practice, not just theory. I know there are times when he feels he choses the lesser of two evils, and I do think that is due to the world we live in. There are lots of hard questions surrounding this issue and I don't pretend to have the answers to all of them.

It is amazing how grey the issues become when you're faced with real people in complex situations! IMO, that's why a person has to have more than a set of "laws" to guide the decision-making. It can get ridiculous!

[SuzySunshine]

Re: Pelosi misrepresents the Catholic Faith

Deb, infertility treatments are what really has me questioning the catholic faith. I find it really hard to believe that God would wish not having children on people when that is such a large part of the faith and the marriage vows. But yes, my understanding is that anything superficial (except the woman taking ovulation drugs) is against the teachings.

Re: Pelosi misrepresents the Catholic Faith

Deb, infertility treatments are what really has me questioning the catholic faith. I find it really hard to believe that God would wish not having children on people when that is such a large part of the faith and the marriage vows. But yes, my understanding is that anything superficial (except the woman taking ovulation drugs) is against the teachings.

Thanks for the understanding! Our decision to do IVF was a long one.
Actually, my whole infertility experience nearly made me give up my faith. For whatever reason (and I don't know why things like this happen to me and not to DH, etc., but they always have) every time I had a question or got really frustrated, there would be a bizarre & timely "coincidence," like a dream that came true, or a question that got directly answered by a random person the next day. My faith is purely on Thomas-like experiences.
But having gone through all that, I don't see things as being as clear-cut as some would like to say. Yes, maybe I can start to see that "there was a reason for it all," but mostly I feel like I'm looking through a very foggy window and going on the shapes that seem clearest most often. It feels good to be looking through the window myself, though, and not only going on what other people tell me they see, if that makes sense. I'm trusting there's grace for where I'm clueless.