Tax policy

[GrayMatterWife]

Re: Tax policy

If so, a revision of the tax policies would seem to be in order.

Holy Understatement Batman! I think that's one sentiment that ALL Americans can agree on.

AMEN!!!

I second that.

[Laker]

Re: Tax policy

Speaking as a foreigner (once again, note that I haven't lived a day as an American, culturally and financially speaking) I find it extremely difficult to understand how anyone who has any interest in healing or helping others could ever support a tax policy that is based on a flat rate for all citizens. People are simply not all clones of each other. Some people are cut out to be for instance physicians (D-gf), academics (myself) and others are cut out to perform jobs that are less demanding with regards to responsibility, personal achievement and hours spent getting to the point that you get to perform it.

I have all the respect in the world for your husbands who work unreasonably many hours per day and want to feel that it is worth it when they read their paycheck at the end of the month, however do they not end up making a good living? Do they prefer people starving to death because they have no money to pay the flat tax rate that is the same for the billionaire, millionaire, and the reasonably wealthy person that I think most of us recognize ourselves as. As much as I like the prospect of having lots and lots of money, I would be ashamed of supporing such a system and I'm not even the person who's taken a hippocratic oath. Me and D-girlfriend will make enough money to make our lives comfortable even if we happen to pay a bit more per capita than the average person.

I do apologize for this rant, however it somehow strikes a very unpleasant chord with me when people who ostensibly claim to want to help others show political opinions that at least to me appear to be a polar opposite of that view. Also, don't forget, I'm European.

EDIT: When making this statement I mistook flat tax rate to mean.. Oh, just read Poky's comment below, okay?

The problem I have is that we have worked so hard, gone without, and are now in a huge hole in terms of debt and then Obama wants to dig in and take more from us, expecially just when we start to make some money. We will be paying education loans until we are in our 60s. I understand that there are people that "aren't cut out to work"...but there are also just plain lazy people that want hand outs. What did people do 200 years ago? If they didn't work and build their own homes, they were screwed.

Another issue is if you take away the financial incentives for hard work, then the quality goes down. Why work hard if the government will take care of you?

[DCJenn]

Re: Tax policy

Laker, my friend, you assume level playing field.

There's no such thing in this good old US of A.

Please, please, PLEASE come to my methadone clinic where I'm currently serving 450 PAYING clients. I will guarantee you these factors:

95% grew up in an abusive household
75% of the women have been sexually or physically abused before age 15.
65% had a parent addicted to substances
The high end ideal for education is actually managing a GED. An actual diploma assumes you lasted in school for 12 years.
The veterans we're currently serving are NOT Vietnam era vets. Nope, they're my age. Gulf War I. Our demographics say that the majority of the honorably discharged Vets that have come through my detox facility are 40-45.

My clients have no dental care, no primary health care, and no preventative care. They can get mental health care IF they act crazy enough to get it. and in my craptastic state there is a dividing line between mental health/substance abuse/mental retardation. so you get your primary diagnosis and guess what? you get to live that forever, despite what happens down the road. You were born w/ FAS and start drinking? You're still retarded and can't get substance abuse treatment. You have a heroin addiction and then they figure out you have bipolar disorder? sorry, you're an addict first and foremost.

They live in poor communities. Texas bases school income on property taxes. If you live in the San Antonio West Side barrios, you don't pay as much in property tax as the chi-chi Northside. So, you don't get to pay teachers as much, or have extracurricular activities, or have fun things like gym, music or art.

and yet, they get up, they get dressed, they send their kids to school and they still try to find a job. So don't for ONE second tell me that any of us here has worked ANY harder than ANYone else. I'm sorry. I'm married to an Army educated Army doctor and I have a fucking Master's degree that I managed to get on my own. and I still have NEVER had to wonder how I was going to eat the next day.

and tell me, what exactly ARE the financial incentives to clean the bathroom in your hotel? Or to park your car in valet parking? oh, wait- there aren't any except the pride in doing the best you can.

and while we're at it- how exactly does 'this' government take care of you? Have you actually ever been on welfare? or Medicaid? or has any woman in your family been on WIC?

Now I will be the first to admit that there's a lot about the system that has to change. I can start with accessible birth control and free drug treatment as a very effective means to prevent the myriad of craptastic situations my clients find themselves in. But...

tell me what you would do if your sexually abusive father made you dropout of school in 8th grade and subsequently introduced you to drugs. and then you prostituted yourself to both support your family and your 'habit'. and then you found yourself knocked up and HIV positive.

TELL ME HOW TO MAKE IT BETTER.

because for fuck's sake, we're barely and I mean BARELY able to make a teeny indent into societal woes.

so, everyone out there who is telling me how things should be. Please- PM me the light, send me the answers. Because right now I/we have 35 pregnant women, I/we have served 32 military vets in detox= 12 of whom are my age. I have had 2000 people come through my sobering unit and it's only been open since July. We're one of six methadone clinics in San Antonio. (houston has 15, FYI)

Please. Give me the answers enlightened ones. because I'm all over taxing anyone who can pay if it means an end to this nightmare.

Jenn

[Rapunzel]

Re: Tax policy

The tax system in this nation IS screwed up - and it's because of both parties. Republicans are NOT fiscally conservative - they are quite liberal fiscally-speaking. And, Democrats go further off into socialism (Animal Farm, anybody?).

I support a complete and utter revision of the tax code and actually following the principles of the Constitution: That the federal government provides for the FEW items specified in that document and leaves social programs to the states to decide and delegate. That would mean getting rid of a ton of sacred cows. But, pension programs, education departments, etc. are best run on a state level rather than by a bloated federal government.

To that end, I believe a low, flat tax to support basic Constitutionally-appointed federal responsibilities such as a military, a mint, etc. is what we should have rather than the insane system we currently have taxing EVERYBODY to death.

Additionally, if we reversed what FDR oversaw regarding taking taxes out of every paycheck we'd have Americans forced to save money to pay their income taxes in one lump sum at the end of every year (as was historically done for the entire U.S. history until FDR) we'd see instantaneous and MAJOR changes to our tax codes. People would have a much better grasp of the enormous amount of their own money that is being taken. That's part of the problem - most of us truly don't have a good understanding of just how much of our own personal money is going to a bloated, greedy, and almost bankrupt (literally) federal government.

I know that my family members - none of whom make even half of what dh makes (many, in fact, live at or below the poverty line) - would ALL benefit from a simple, low, flat tax and state oversight of the out-of-control "social" programs that are bankrupting this nation.

No, I do not believe that taxes will be revolutionized (as they should be) under Obama OR McCain. Neither of them have the forsight, the hindsight, or the guts to do so.

[Rapunzel]

Re: Tax policy

Jenn, my dh and I both grew up not always knowing if/when we'd eat. DH has a particularly horrible story about when his entire family was living in a tent and all he and his brothers and parents had to eat (there were seven of them altogether at the time) was one head of lettuce - for a couple of days. His mom peeled leaves off the lettuce head and stacked them up and told the boys to pretend they were sandwiches. She'd say, "And, this one is a piece of bread. And, this one is the cheese...." And so on.

I also have a lot of abuse and mental illness in my recent family history. DH has a mom who was a dirt-poor, widowed, uneducated Mexican immigrant.

Yet, having gone through all of that we both truly believe that the current social programs in this nation are NOT the solution to these problems. Have they helped at all to this point? No. Instead we have captains of perpetually sinking ships trying to get the water out with little buckets. Throwing more money at the problems is like giving the captains a few more buckets to work on the water with - ignoring that the ships themselves are made out of sponges. It's a futile solution, in other words.

Life stinks for a lot of people. Life stunk for dh and I growing up in many ways. My family was on our church's welfare program for quite a while just to eat, for another example.

But, the answer to Life Stinks is not our current implemented situation. I do believe that there are more workable solutions that do not involve the federal government. Using faith-based charity programs (such as my church's), giving fiscal control and responsibility to state and local governments, tightening up rules so those who are truly able to get off welfare do so that those who truly need it can be on it, etc.

Interestingly, some of the most fiscally conservative people I know are also some of the financially poorest people I know - because they recognize that the government will not save them in the end.

[DCJenn]

Re: Tax policy

OK-

Your answer is Faith based.

GREAT! I'd like my tax dollars back.

So, right here, right now. Lay it out for me. Tell me how with your faith based entities you feed, clothe, medicate, teach, detox and clean their teeth.

Bring it on sista, cuz I am ALL ears. I will be there at 8am Monday morning.

We've got 12,000 diagnosed heroin addicts in San Antonio. Start with them and then we can move on to their familial situations.

J

[Rapunzel]

Re: Tax policy

The point is, Jenn, that you cannot force people to be clean, take care of themselves, and lead a happy life. You can't force people to treat themselves with respect. All the money in the world cannot do that. All the well-meaning prodding in the world cannot do that.

You can provide opportunities to help those who are actively making efforts to improve their lives. And, that is where a more locally-run type of welfare and faith-based programs come into play.

However, people are going to make crappy choices. Those crappy choices are going to negatively impact (even kill) themselves. As difficult as it is to watch others self-destruct - we cannot force them NOT to self-destruct. And, our current solution of throwing money in that direction has proven itself to be pointless and useless. The people who are helped are those who take responsibility for themselves and just need a little bit of temporary help to get back into the swing of things. Those people do need help - I won't argue with that. But, I don't think that federal programs are the solution there.

I cannot fathom doing your job day in and day out - trying to force people to take care of themselves while they slowly kill themselves. But, I think you are a well-meaning and kind-hearted captain of a sinking ship and no amount of extra buckets is going to accomplish the tasks that have been given to you.

[DCJenn]

Re: Tax policy

ah but here's where I get to stun you with my statistics

I CAN get people to get clean. The magic number is 3. I.E. the third time they come through detox (that would be $350 per admission as opposed to the $1200 bucks to process a public inebriate through the mag court) they're ready.

In fact, we have just had to open our intensive outpatient program up at night because our graduates have jobs that they don't want to leave during the day.

My point is- don't throw the bathwater out with the baby. There are a LOT of us who are federally and state TAX funded and trust me, we're saving you (the taxpayer) thousands of dollars a day. Give us more and we can do more. We are what is known as the 'payor of last resort' which means that we get the people who have no other options. We get people back into mental health treatment, we get people HIV tested and into treatment, we get people into residential drug treatment. It just doesn't happen on Day One of services. Sometimes it takes years. Sometimes life intrudes. (which is something the medical spouse should understand). and yes, sometimes it never happens. But isn't it better and more humane to try?

What may appear to be a bloated system might not be upon closer inspection. We divert thousands of people out of the jail system every year. Just think what we could do impacting these people BEFORE they were addicts.

Jenn

and in all seriousness, I LOVE my job. I love every single little annoying thing about it. I wish more people would consider social services, from any aspect. It's the second best job I've ever had, after being a mom. (maybe more immediately rewarding, though)

[Laker]

Re: Tax policy

Lots of the problems come down to personal choices. I am not against all social programs, I just don't really want my taxes increased to pay for more of them. I don't want to eventually be labelled by Obama as "the wealthiest 1%" without considering any other circumstances, and then fleeced because we are "evil" or "greedy". I don't want DW and I to be punished financially for working hard, staying the course, putting things off, going without, taking on enormous debt, all so we can help others daily through our professions...and then get gouged by the tax man.

I was a public defender for over 2.5 years in a major metropolitan area (Ft. Lauderdale, FL). My thousands of clients were HIV positive, prostitutes, homeless, crack-addicted, heroin-addicted, mentally ill, abused, shot, stabbed, sociopathic, homophobic, homosexual, transexual, religous, athiest, male, female, black, white, hispanic...etc. I have felt terrible when my client was convicted and sentenced to 15 years in Florida State Prison. I have felt happy when I received not guilty verdicts when the state was trying to put my crack addict clients in prison for having dirty crack pipes. I think it is safe to say that I have seen it all as well.

I have argued to have my clients go into treatment instead of prison successfully probably hundreds of times. In my experience, the clients that do the best, are those that go into the programs where they have to actually work to pay for their own treatment and be accountable.

I am just big on personal responsibility. Don't have kids if you can't afford them, don't have sex if you can't afford protection or the consequences, don't use drugs, don't rob and steal, don't shoot people, don't sign up for an interest only ARM for a 500k house on 35k income with no money down, don't max out your credit cards on ipods and the latest clothing, don't have cable...don't drop out of school...

[DCJenn]

Re: Tax policy

I don't think that there's a person out there who wouldn't argue for personal responsibility. But you still have to make it easy for people to BE responsible.

I can't tell you the number of women we serve who actually would like to have their tubes tied. but guess what? Medicaid doesn't cover them unless their pregnant.

The psychiatrist and I figured out yesterday at work that it would take a person 3701 years, paying a dollar a second, to pay back what the Federal government has spent on the financial bailout. That's our tax dollars at work.

and we also just bought great golden parachutes for these guys, too.

The tax system here is ridicuous- no argument there, either. But we can't assume that everyone is capable of the "pulling oneself up by the bootstraps" without tax-supported services. We have a bloated federal government with really stupid earmarks and pork. However, I'd much rather bailout someone who is about to lose their home vs. pay multiple millions of dollars to some corporate boob of ran his company into the ground.

I would love to have a system that taxed everyone fairly AND then spent the money on stuff that actually helps the people who paid for it- roads, schools, medical research, social programs and even the military. No more pass throughs and no more blank checks to states and local jurisdictions.

J.

[PrincessFiona]

Re: Tax policy

This is an incredibly interesting thread.

Jenn, I would argue that you are exactly right about the playing field not being level. This is one of the reasons that I would argue that financial funding for schools should be federal and not run by individual states. If we can pay to bailout wallstreet, we can invest in our children.

I went to 3 high schools in 3 different towns/states. The differences between IL and TX (for example) were mind blowing. In IL, I had to work my butt off for fairly average grades. In TX, I literally slept through AP classes and got A's. It really was an eye opener for me!

I had a friend from grad school that is teaching chemistry in a poor district in Florida. The job paid very little and so good candidates did not apply for job. Despite her degree in chemistry <ahem> she was unable to pass a chem. teacher certification exam. In grad school, she had to resit classes and took all electives in the education dept. instead of the sciences. Honestly, I have no idea how she got by and she really, really, really was baaaaad. So...she teaches low income, poorer students. That sucks.

We should have national education standards with equal and full funding for each school district in the nation.

Regarding social programs...I would argue that these should be available for the heroin-addict and non-heroin addict alike.

I can honestly say that I was fortunate as a child to receive certain interventions and help after some trauma...or I might be living in your treatment facility, Jenn. I thank my lucky stars that my family had the means to get support.

We are all horrified by the idea of child abuse and children living in substandard conditions. We feel sorry for children and want to prevent harm from coming to a child. Why? Because the effects of child abuse are so far-reaching and devastating. Children who can't afford treatment, don't have family support and who don't have access to good education won't have the tools emotionally or from an educational standpoint to create a stable life for themselves as adults. They are at a much greater risk for mental health problems, drug addiction and homelessness.

But kids are cute and we want to help them. What happens when the kids who feel through the cracks become adults? Jenn gets them. It is our moral obligation as a society to help them.

[Sheherezade]

Re: Tax policy

I agree about personal responsibility - but I'm having some trouble processing these bailouts as well. :huh: I realize that this was to protect our economy from even more fall out that would hit people who have made no huge financial errors -- but jeez. It is sickening to read about these young Turks burning through their 75 K/month salaries that worked for these companies. Uhhh......we'd like some of that money back now. It is gone, gone, gone, though....into dinners at French Laundry and Cristal bottles. I'd like to teach them personal responsibility as much as I'd like to teach the kid that spray paints the walls in town. :huh: As for the homeowner that buys the 900K house for ONE on their new attending salary (we have one leaving here)...I'm not sure how they are doing that. If the loan comes back to bite them because taxes go up less than 5% or the hospital renegotiates their contract based on RPIs, I don't know. Maybe they should have left more wiggle room? Is that being personally irresponsible - or hopelessly optimistic?

As for the Federal government leaving social programs to the states, I'm not sure how I feel about that. I think that is one of the BIG discussions that we should have as a nation as we move forward. People move around a lot more than they used to - jobs require it. We are becoming MORE fluid, not less. Maybe it is time to revisit States Rights/Responsibilities vs. Federal Rights/Responsibilities so we can end that particular rift in our culture.

As for the candidates making bold moves in policy, poor FDR did make bold moves - and he's still getting beat up for it. :huh: We punish people that make bold changes - and we are hesitant to elect them. Maybe, just maybe the mood for change is so great this time out (and we do live in a changed world-global economy, internet, etc) that after the election the new administration will ACT. We need to update. USA 2.0. And then.....debug of course.

[Vanquisher]

Re: Tax policy

I agree with Ms. San Antonio Jenn.

[Rapunzel]

Re: Tax policy

We should have national education standards with equal and full funding for each school district in the nation.

Should we have accountability attached to the money (our money) given? How do you feel about No Child Left Behind?

But kids are cute and we want to help them. What happens when the kids who feel through the cracks become adults? Jenn gets them. It is our moral obligation as a society to help them.

I agree that we have a moral obligation as individual members of society to help them.

However, I do NOT believe it is the government's responsibility to do so.

And, that is where I believe a lot of that 40% tax rate on those such as yourself comes from: The inability to distinguish moral obligations from government obligations.

The federal government is there to do some very basic things. Unfortunately people such as FDR (thank goodness he couldn't run for a FIFTH term) completely overextended our government and started it on a downward spiral towards socialism. When we start straying from the Constitution we enter shaky ground. And, we have strayed very far.

It IS a moral obligation for individual members of society to aid others in society. I completely agree with that.

But, the means to do so should NOT be the federal government. It is not its place. And, no one should be compelled to do what WE believe is THEIR moral obligation - and that is the system we currently have.

Additionally, the federal government is an incredibly wasteful beauracracy. Do you really think even half of the money that COULD go to funding "morally obligatory" programs actually makes it there? The federal government is the LAST entity I would trust with my money. After all, they're doing such a great job with it as it is.

Moral obligations fall to individuals in a free, capitalist democracy. Those obligations are personal and based on freedom of choice. We can choose to destroy ourselves; AND we should be able to choose how/when/why/where/what we would like to help those who choose to destroy themselves.

[PrincessFiona]

Re: Tax policy

It IS a moral obligation for individual members of society to aid others in society. I completely agree with that.

But, the means to do so should NOT be the federal government. It is not its place. And, no one should be compelled to do what WE believe is THEIR moral obligation - and that is the system we currently have.

Why shouldn't it be the responsibility of the federal government? What would you argue are the purposes of government?