Colin Powell endorses Obama

[alison]

Re: Colin Powell endorses Obama

And, no, Allison, you cannot just quit the military once you've made a commitment. Especially for doctors it is indentured servitude. You are OWNED until your commitment is up - and even then they can still go back on the agreement and keep you indefinitely (see stop-loss).

I meant resigning from the position as Sec. of State., not the military.

Re: Colin Powell endorses Obama

I meant resigning from the position as Sec. of State., not the military.

I see Colin Powell as largely about honor and to leave mid-term would have been potentially embarrassing to his boss. He wanted to fulfill the commitment he'd made.

I'd venture a guess that most medical officers in the military are not your standard-issue military man (or woman). I do not say this to diminish their contribution or the sacrifices they make -- but I know when we considered it, we looked at it from an entirely different perspective than one would if they're intention was to first be in the military and THEN be a doctor. I think Rick's experience is different than most docs completing payback b/c he has been in from the start and gone through his entire education in the military. For docs who decide to sign up in order to receive the stipend, it's less of a mentality / lifestyle, and if they're planning to get out at the first option, they may be more open with their own beliefs (for better or worse). But I agree wholeheartedly with JennH that it's not indentured servitude. People are compensated BEFORE actually working (stipends during med school and/or residency), and then paid - not near market value, of course - during their payback. No one is forced to participate in the stipend program, and it's very clear that your earnings during payback will be far below that what you could earn in the outside world.
And while income post training IS significantly lower, the fact that there is ANY income during med school and/or an increased income during residency makes a HUGE difference.

[Rapunzel]

Re: Colin Powell endorses Obama

Actually, it is NOT clear what your earnings will be when you sign on the dotted line. I have yet to hear of a recruiter who has told an HPSP student what their earnings will be post-training. Most (including my own husband) unfortunately assume that they will be fairly compensated commiserate with market value for their services. And, many, such as my own husband, are completely ignorant of things such as loans for medical school when they sign up. In short, many who come from economically disadvantaged backgrounds simply do not understand that there are much better alternatives to funding a medical education.

And, as can be shown by the military not paying their physicians fair compensation and not being beholden to their own end of the contract, it is indentured servitude. In fact, I know from personal experience (as well as the experience of others) that the military doesn't actually have to pay their physicians - period - for months at a time (under their own rules). Under a normal contract both parties are legally beholden to what they have agreed to in writing. With the military contract the government can legally change what they want when they want with no repercussions (witness stop-loss: the government can force a military physician to stay in the military even if their contract is up simply because the military decides to do so). How many of you with husbands in the real world face such scenarios? How many of you have some sort of recourse should your spouse face breach of contract on the part of their employer (such as failure to pay)? How many of you will have your spouse's employer throw your spouse in jail should he/she attempt to leave their employment when their contract is up but the employer chooses not to acknowledge that?

I don't think many of you - such as Jane - understand the lack of freedom military physicians face. It is understandably bewildering to most military physicians that another doctor would chose to continue such an existence past their given original contract. Generally doctors who do so are less likely to practice medicine. As you move up the medical chain of command you move out of medicine and into bureaucratic roles and responsibilities. You become a politician more than a doctor.

The military medical school route is a completely different process. It involves a totally different mentality and those individuals are often unlike any real-world physician I have met or known. Those individuals do not seem to understand what their services are truly worth and what freedom is truly like. They have been conditioned by that particular system so long that they don't know anything else.

[Rapunzel]

Re: Colin Powell endorses Obama

People are compensated BEFORE actually working (stipends during med school and/or residency), and then paid - not near market value, of course - during their payback. No one is forced to participate in the stipend program, and it's very clear that your earnings during payback will be far below that what you could earn in the outside world.
And while income post training IS significantly lower, the fact that there is ANY income during med school and/or an increased income during residency makes a HUGE difference.

No, they are not compensated before working.

They owe for every single tiny thing that the military paid for during school. Every part of the tuition or books paid, every part of the tiny (and, I mean tiny) stipend is owed post-training.

It is ALL a debt. The living stipend is part of that debt just as much as the loan money you lived off of during your spouse's medical school years.

As I mentioned previously it is NOT very clear that your earnings during payback will be far below what you could earn in the outside world. I have yet to meet a single HPSP physician for whom that was clear. In fact, it is deceptively unclear. Where do you get the idea that it is clear before medical school even begins?

And, the fact that you are paid something post-training does not account for the dishonest practice of not paying a physician what their services are worth. That's like taking a BMW from the car lot, leaving a five dollar bill, and telling the sales person that at least you paid him "something" for it.

[Meenah]

Re: Colin Powell endorses Obama

Former Secretary of State Gen. Colin Powell endorses Sen. Barack Obama

I've always known General Powell is a smart man!

Re: Colin Powell endorses Obama

People are compensated BEFORE actually working (stipends during med school and/or residency), and then paid - not near market value, of course - during their payback. No one is forced to participate in the stipend program, and it's very clear that your earnings during payback will be far below that what you could earn in the outside world.
And while income post training IS significantly lower, the fact that there is ANY income during med school and/or an increased income during residency makes a HUGE difference.

As I mentioned previously it is NOT very clear that your earnings during payback will be far below what you could earn in the outside world. I have yet to meet a single HPSP physician for whom that was clear. In fact, it is deceptively unclear. Where do you get the idea that it is clear before medical school even begins?

We looked into this when my dh was in training, and he was given very clear figures on how his salary would be caluclated. Those figures played into our decision not to go down that path. I guess not all recruiters are following the same playbook.

And my statement regarding being paid before you work refers to the fact that you do RECEIVE MONEY before you begin payback. Yes, you work it off at the end - but if you're receiving a stipend, or items paid for, or not accruing school debt (whichever scenario might apply), then you do receive compensation before working.

[DCJenn]

Re: Colin Powell endorses Obama

If anyone is unclear as to what they will be paid as a military physician, how the stipends work, how the paybacks work or how the bonuses are paid in advance of the year that you are working, then I would encourage them to look at the military.com website.

Nothing is hidden, it's all public information. and in all honesty, the military doesn't care who you are or what you may have done while you weren't in the miltary unless it specifically benefits the military. You sign the contract, you get the money, life goes on.

The Assignments officers and the Contracts personnel are also available to explain things that may not be clear.

Here's the difference for those who aren't part of this system: USUHS pays for 100% of medical school, including books and materials in exchange for seven years of payback AFTER training. In our case, my husband did a three year peds residency and a three year child neurology fellowship and THEN started the 7 year payback. but, he also decided that since he was enlisted, in the guard and by then will have 22 years in he might as well stick around and guarantee his retirement for the rank earned (you have to be in the rank for two years in order to receive the retirement pay at that rank) so he added another four years to his time owed.

HPSP is a stipend system, and allows people to attend civilian medical schools in exchange for fewer years owed. This payback also occurs after training, so most HPSP docs don't stick around after they're done with their payback because they don't have the time in service to make it worthwhile- and they can usually make more money on the civilian side of the house.

There is another way to do it- which is what Matt's wife did- they were paid during residency and then she owed her payback.

The medical corps of the military is SOOOOO not the regular military. It's a lot less 'Hooah' and a lot more 'hello'. That said, they do get deployed and they do see a lot of really bad crap while they're deployed. They're just not the ones driving the tanks and knocking down doors. they do have to take the same classes as officers and are required to pass the same PT tests as everyone else. (my husband just maxed his PT test yesterday! It makes no difference to anyone but him but it makes him happy)

But, back to General Powell. He was regular Army. As I said, it's a completely different part of the military world and he was Regular Army at a time when it wasn't exactly the cool thing to do. My argument has been all along that a person who has spent 30+ years in the Army would cut his leg off before publically questioning his commanding officer, in this case, the President of the United States. I'm not going to cut and paste the man's entire life story but it's pretty complelling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Powell

Jenn