UNIONS

[Flynn]

I've been thinking a lot about unions lately with the american car company debacle that's going on.

The contracts some of the companies signed were just -- wacky. 60$ an hour, plus 90% of your salary if you're laid off -- while Toyota pays the same worker 13 dollars an hour??? :banghead:

I see the point for Unions. I completely get it. Norma Rae deserved benefits, air conditioning and potty breaks -- but c'mon!!!

When I was a teacher I saw the "union" protect GOD AWFUL teachers and their jobs because they had worked in the district for a certain amount of time. It was such a JOKE.

The flip side is I've seen the other side too -- I've been on strike for over a month without pay. There is no way in hell we would have gotten our cost of living raise (3.5% ) had the union not decided to strike.

My salary as a teacher with a masters degree went from 30,000 dollars to 30,000 + 3.5%. But hey, a raise is a raise -- right?

So what do you guys think? (PLEASE let's not get into politics if possible here -- that wasn't my intention.)

[medpedspouse]

Re: UNIONS

*disclaimer* Never been part of a union and do not much about them so take this FWIW.

I think that they were great - something necessary to protect employees BUT like most things in life some have found ways to abuse the system to the point that something great, created for the greater good, is now not only harming its own...but no longer effective in delivering its original mission.

Just my :02:

[SuzySunshine]

Re: UNIONS

While I personally have never worked for a union I have an uncle that works for one of the aircraft manufacturers and he just went through a strike. They were on strike at the same time as Boeing and they went back to work way before Boeing did because they were a lot more willing to make concessions so they could go back to work.

I have another uncle that used to work for the same company and was fired for never coming to work, etc. and his union got him a rep and they tried to get his job back. He totally didn't deserve it back and in the end he didn't get it but the union tried everything to get him back into that job.

I think unions are good in some ways but I TOTALLY agree that they have been taken advantage of. People do half ass work or very little work b/c they know their union will protect them. As bad as it sounds I think now is the time for the car manufacturers to get rid of them or completely restructure them. Those people would have two choices, work for a more reasonable wage and more reasonable benefits or not work at all. In this economy they'd probably file for unemployment but that runs out eventually then they'll have to make a choice.

[houseelf]

Re: UNIONS

I think that it is like almost everything in Economics. The pendulum has swung from one end of the spectrum (Think: child labor) to the complete opposite end of the spectrum (Exhibit A: current state of the Auto Industry). Not to get all Confuscious about a pretty straight forward question, but I think that you can't state unequivocally whether a union is good or bad, necessary or unnecessary. It all turns on the circumstances.

I, for one, think it is high time residents unionize for about a five year period. Boy, oh boy, would I have an infraction or two to take up with some surly Teamsters on our behalf.

Kelly

Re: UNIONS

I think that it is like almost everything in Economics. The pendulum has swung from one end of the spectrum (Think: child labor) to the complete opposite end of the spectrum (Exhibit A: current state of the Auto Industry). Not to get all Confuscious about a pretty straight forward question, but I think that you can't state unequivocally whether a union is good or bad, necessary or unnecessary. It all turns on the circumstances.

I, for one, think it is high time residents unionize for about a five year period. Boy, oh boy, would I have an infraction or two to take up with some surly Teamsters on our behalf.

Kelly

I mostly agree with this. I wonder how the cost of union dues compares to what is gained in pay and benefits and if what is gained over a strike (unpaid time) is offset by gains and to what degree. I also think that unions create more of an adversarial relationship between management and labor and that detracts from the aim of a company.

I've never been a union member but have had union employee working for me who had to be fired. We had cause and then some but what a PITA and more insult to an already difficult situation. I also had to work a union position as strike duty during a strike -- also a PITA. That left a bad taste in my mouth re: unions.

[DCJenn]

Re: UNIONS

My ex was a Union firefighter (local 1619 forever seared into my brain) and it was helpful for making sure that they negotiated leave/pay/benefits but they also had a no-strike clause in the contracts because you cannot have a large metropolitan area without firefighters and EMS.

I think some unions have negotiated themselves into a hole.

I'm very glad the local hotel maid has a union representing her; I'm not sure that the highly educated Aircraft Engineers, the Actors Guild, the writer's guilds, etc. need quite the level of union support these days.

Unions have tried to break into social services- have in some states but no one wants to pay us a decent salary.

Jenn

Re: UNIONS

I think that it is like almost everything in Economics. The pendulum has swung from one end of the spectrum (Think: child labor) to the complete opposite end of the spectrum (Exhibit A: current state of the Auto Industry). Not to get all Confuscious about a pretty straight forward question, but I think that you can't state unequivocally whether a union is good or bad, necessary or unnecessary. It all turns on the circumstances.

I, for one, think it is high time residents unionize for about a five year period. Boy, oh boy, would I have an infraction or two to take up with some surly Teamsters on our behalf.

Kelly

I'm with Kelly here.

I think a lot of what unions were intially created to do is /can be now handled with updated employment laws though (I'd be interested in residents unionizing since they don't currently qualify for protection under most employment laws). I do not approve of a raise that happens just 'cause you've managed to hang on another year. I do not approve of a job being protected just b/c a person managed to skate by (or maybe actually tried) for enough years. If you don't do a job well, you shouldn't get to keep it. If your job isn't really worth $60/hour, then you shouldn't earn it just b/c you've been doing it forever.

[Rapunzel]

Re: UNIONS

At this point I'm actually wishing dh could be a part of a union. His last paycheck was $1001 and he wasn't paid anything in November - nada. Seriously.

[Sheherezade]

Re: UNIONS

I am reading (yet another ) economics book that covers a lot of the early union contract negotiations with the auto industry. It is a great historical account -- but it has shocked me. One of the most powerful and influential union leaders (Reuther? sp? ) was essentially striving to achieve a socialist support network through either the government or industry. Government didn't give as much (no health care, only limited pension via SS, limited unemployment, etc) but he got *tons* of concessions from the then-thriving auto industry. Apparently, they were making money hand over fist and strikes just weren't worth standing your ground on payments that would occur in the future. I believe the time frame for all these negotiations was 1940s - 60s. Well, now it is the future and what they've promised can not hold. It is funny to consider the government the more savvy negotiator for a change!!

The most ridiculously optimistic of these benefits were the pensions paid to early retirees. They not only granted a generous pension after 30 years of service - but supplemented the pension by the amount that the retiree would eventually draw from SS until they were eligible to draw from the government. So, if you started working at 18, you could retire at 48 and draw your pension plus a SS supplement until 65. At that time it reduced to just pension. They also provided health benefits for early retirees. :huh: All and all - a fantastic social support network. I can't believe that the companies agreed to this set up. :huh: It's kind of like Google's free sushi benefits these days.

The figure of "$70/hour labor costs vs. less" you hear calculates in benefit payments to non-working retirees as well as current employee labor costs. It isn't a direct comparison of current wages. Apparently, new hires are on a "Plan B" with something like a $16/hour wage. So....they have made concessions with new workers. The problem is old workers and retirees far out number these guys.

I don't think the problem is unions per se - but some of the deals obtained by their leaders over the years. I think everyone involved was unrealistic and didn't envision our global market. I'm terribly against the "card check" legislation because I can see how then you'd be intimidated in to joining a union. How is being intimidated by the union leaders any better than being intimidated by an employer. :huh: I do think that labor has a right to be riled when their CEOs are drawing golden parachutes and looking at the stock holders more closely than the workers. It seems lately increasing a dividend or stock share based on announcements of "restructuring" is done without any regard for the commiunities it destroys. That's bad. CEOs need to care more about the success of the company as a whole in the long haul -- not just what their options are worth before they leave for a different industry.

I'm not sure how to make labor agreements more easily renegotiable - but I think we are about to find out what happens when the future can't deliver on the promises of the past in a big, big way. According to the book I've been reading, the Big Three are only the first of wave of industries that will confront massive growth in legacy costs as the baby boom generation becomes eligible for retiree benefits. Municipalities may be next. City workers are usually equal targets in the whole "union workers" debates. NYC, firemen, police, yuck.

[migirl]

Re: UNIONS

I have seen unions be both "good" and "bad" (this is going to be waaaay condensed, typing w/ one hand while nursing baby).

The good: the residents here are unionized, and we reaped plenty of benefits from the arrangement (parking fees, holiday pay (double time!) on holidays and birthdays, annual 7% bonus, etc).

The bad: I worked for many years in the auto industry, and I've seen the UAW up close. The waste and abuse is horrible.

I don't think you can say that they're inherently good or bad. How's that for wishy-washy?? :huh:

Re: UNIONS

Another one-handed nursing momma, here....

The good: the residents here are unionized, and we reaped plenty of benefits from the arrangement (parking fees, holiday pay (double time!) on holidays and birthdays, annual 7% bonus, etc).

Those are great benefits, Jane! DH was in a union when he was a resident and the benefits were few and far between.....no holiday pay/bonuses...no lunch breaks....no free meals. He did receive a couple of COL raises that were around 3-4% each, but his salary was still low compared to other programs even though we were in an area with an extremely high COL. Maybe if he ran into trouble during residency they would have been there to protect him.... :huh: ...but I can't say it was worth the dues he had to pay.