6 + Octuplets = FOURTEEN!!!

[MDPhDWife]

Re: 6 + Octuplets = FOURTEEN!!!

ITA with Diggitydot, she hit the nail on the head of what I was thinking. When I first heard this story I thought of someone who was looking for a reality show. This woman is cleary out of her damn mind!

[MrsK]

Re: 6 + Octuplets = FOURTEEN!!!

From today's Washington Post:

Octuplet Mother Also Gives Birth To Ethical Debate

By Ashley Surdin
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, February 4, 2009; C01



LOS ANGELES, Feb. 3 -- Public opinion seems to be cresting against her, her own mother is rattled, and now fertility experts are suggesting the case of Nadya Suleman and her octuplets constitutes a breach of medical guidelines.

Suleman, 33, gave birth to six boys and two girls by Caesarean section Jan. 26 at a Kaiser Permanente Medical Center in Bellflower, Calif. The miraculous event -- reportedly one of only two live octuplet births ever in the United States -- quickly drew criticism after it was revealed that Suleman is single, unemployed, lives with her mother and already has six children -- including twins -- ranging in age from 2 to 7.

Her daughter "is not evil, but she is obsessed with children. She loves children, she is very good with children, but obviously, she overdid herself," her mother, Angela Suleman, told the Los Angeles Times. She decided to have more embryos implanted in hopes of having "just one more girl."

"And look what happened. Octuplets. Dear God."

The birth of eight babies to a woman who becomes responsible for 14 children is attracting a different set of worries from the medical community, particularly fertility doctors, who say it goes against the mission of their work: to minimize high-risk, multiple-birth pregnancy and safely provide a woman with a single healthy baby. It is also raising questions about the lax regulations covering doctors and clinics that provide such services.

"It was a grave error, whatever happened," said Eleanor Nicoll, a spokeswoman for the American Society for Reproductive Medicine, which along with the Society for Assisted Reproductive Technology provides medical guidelines for fertility treatments. "It should not have happened. Eight children should not have been conceived and born."

Suleman has yet to reveal how the babies were conceived, or which clinic or doctor was involved -- her publicist said she has "reserved that part of her story" for now, and Kaiser said it was not involved in the conception.

Typically, doctors use one of two procedures. One is in vitro fertilization, whereby doctors combine eggs and sperm in a laboratory, creating embryos, and transfer a small number into the uterus. The second is intrauterine insemination, in which doctors stimulate the ovaries to produce eggs and follow that with artificial insemination.

In both procedures, doctors said, they work with two to three embryos, or four at the very most. But never eight.

For a woman in her early 30s, like Suleman, ASRM guidelines for in vitro fertilization call for no more than two transferred embryos.

Doctors work with few embryos to avoid multi-birth pregnancies, which heighten health risks for both mother and babies. Such pregnancies put a mother at a higher risk of premature labor and delivery. They also put babies at increased risk of brain injuries, underdeveloped lungs and intestines, and cerebral palsy, among other things.

The female body is designed to undergo what Lawrence Werlin, medical director of the Coastal Fertility Center in Irvine, called "the most significant physiological stress that can happen to the body. Certainly, you can imagine what kind of stress that would be with a multi-fetal gestation.

"I would certainly say that this is contrary to what everyone else would do in our field," Werlin added.

It's standard, Werlin said, for doctors to take a patient's history -- say, how long she has been trying to get pregnant or how many children she has -- before beginning a fertility treatment.

He said there's no specific number of previous children or hoped-for babies that determines treatment. But in Suleman's case, he said, he doubted that she requested such a sizable brood.

"I can't believe that she came in and said to the doctor that 'I want eight more children.' I can't believe that," Werlin said, chuckling. "And if she did, I would say, 'I'm sorry, I'm not the person for you.' "

David C. Magnus, director of the Stanford Center for Biomedical Ethics, said that if the octuplets were produced through in vitro fertilization, it would spotlight the poorly regulated infertility and reproduction field.

"This is a huge problem," Magnus said. "You've got a virtually unregulated marketplace with tort law serving as regulation in the U.S."

Magnus said that U.S. medical standards are not unlike those of other countries, but that U.S. guidelines are laced with the language of "you should" rather than strict rules and sanctions.

The professional organizations should take a stricter line with doctors and clinics, he said. "They've been very loath to take that action."

But "if you leave it up to the marketplace," he added, "there will be abuses."

Suleman's babies, who are still in the hospital with their mother, were born 30 1/2 weeks into gestation, weighing between one and a little more than three pounds. They are breathing on their own, according to doctors, but are expected to stay in the hospital for weeks.

In the meantime, Suleman has hired publicists to handle the hundreds of media inquiries from around the world. According to her spokesman, Mike Furtney, the "very bright, very engaging" Suleman has a degree in psychology and hopes to continue work toward a master's degree.

As for some of the criticism aimed at her, Furtney said, "she's hopeful that when she tells the story, people will change their opinion of her -- for the good."

Staff researchers Julie Tate and Madonna Lebling contributed to this report.

[SuzySunshine]

Re: 6 + Octuplets = FOURTEEN!!!

From today's Washington Post:

As for some of the criticism aimed at her, Furtney said, "she's hopeful that when she tells the story, people will change their opinion of her -- for the good."

I don't see how that could happen unless she's a multi-millionaire and the care of these babies isn't going to fall on anyone but herself. Taxpayers are going to be PISSED!

[poky]

Re: 6 + Octuplets = FOURTEEN!!!

I'd love to know how she expects to "continue work toward a master's degree" with fourteen children under 7. Unless, as Cheri says, she's a multimillionaire. I bet there's enough people out there who want a piece of her "fame" that she'll be able to survive on donations for a while, though. *sigh*

[KCwife]

Re: 6 + Octuplets = FOURTEEN!!!

"I will be able to afford them when I am done with my schooling..." uhhh, what about right NOW? Seriously, I feel very sorry for all of her children.

[MDPhDWife]

Re: 6 + Octuplets = FOURTEEN!!!

Am I nuts because I don't think a masters in counseling pays all that much. Not to mention when is she going to find the time to finish her schooling? Maybe that was something she should have considered doing before adding to her brood? There really isn't going to be a way the financial support of these children is NOT going to fall onto the taxpayers.

[DCJenn]

Re: 6 + Octuplets = FOURTEEN!!!

uh, I've been at this for 20 years now and I'm making just under 50k. So, yes, she's delusional.

Jenn

[alison]

Re: 6 + Octuplets = FOURTEEN!!!

I have been trying to ignore this story, because then I'm feeding the media frenzy that I believe to be a big reason for why this woman had these kids in the first place. She's invading all the tv shows. I'd rather hear over and over about US Air 1549 than this octuplet story. Barf.

[diggitydot]

Re: 6 + Octuplets = FOURTEEN!!!

Here's an interview with the grandma:

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2 ... apable.php

Grandma Blasts Octuplet Mom: "Nadya's Not Capable"

Angela Suleman inside her home, which is already cramped with 6 children.
"The truth is Nadya's not capable of raising 14 children."

The mother of the woman who gave birth to octuplets recently is speaking exclusively to RadarOnline.com and says her daughter's actions are "unconscionable."

All of Nadya Suleman's children have been conceived with in vitro fertilization.

The comments from Nadya's mother Angela are adding fuel to the growing controversy that has already sparked an investigation by the California Medical Board into the circumstances surrounding implantation of six embryos into a woman with six children.

See exclusive photos inside the trashed home.

When Nadya, 33, decided to be implanted with multiple embryos, Angela was stunned. She told RadarOnline.com: "I was very upset. She already has six beautiful children, why would she do this?

"To have them all is unconscionable to me. She really really has no idea what she's doing to her children and to me."

Nadya lives with Angela, a retired teacher, and Angela says Nadya contributes no money to the support of her own children. Eight people - soon to be 16 - are cramped into a small three-bedroom house and fed in shifts.

RadarOnline.com obtained exclusive photos inside the house, photos that are bound to raise more questions about Nadya's ability to care for so many children and a RadarOnline.com reporter described the interior as "filthy", with food on the walls.

"How she's going to cope, I don't know," Angela told RadarOnline.com about her daughter. "I'm really tired of taking care of the six children and need her to think about how she'll provide for all these children."

Angela told RadarOnline.com that Nadya turned her boyfriend into a sperm donor for all 14 kids, but refused to marry him. "He was in love with her and wanted to marry her," said Angela. "But Nadya wanted to have children on her own."

Nadya was so determined to have children, she first became pregnant at 16, Angela told RadarOnline.com. She miscarried, said Angela, and discovered she had blocked fallopian tubes.

"How she's going to cope, I don't know."Angela said that she and Nadya's father, Ed, begged one doctor not to implant any more embryos in Nadya, who already had six children. But Nadya found another doctor to implant six embryos, and two split, resulting in eight more babies. That doctor's decision to perform the in vitro has left the octuplets grandmother furious. "I'm really angry about that," she told RadarOnline.com.

Angela also voiced her anger over Nadya's claim she was raised in a dysfunctional family and was lonely as a child. "We raised her in a loving family and her father always spoiled her," Angela said.

"The truth is that Nadya hasn't worked since she started having her children," Angela, charged, "while Ed and I battled to pay her bills.

"Nadya promised to help me with the bills, but she never has. I lost a house because of it and now I'm struggling to look after her six. We had to put in bunk beds, feed them in shifts and there's children's clothing piled all over the house."

Angela told RadarOnline.com that she wasn't at the octuplets' birth because she was looking after the other six children. "But I saw the octuplets when they were two days old. They were so tiny and fragile, with bright purple skin, I was afraid to touch them but they're all doing well.

"Nadya has given them all Biblical names. Seven of them are dark-haired, but one, Noah, shows my side of the family. He looked so cute with his purple skin and bright yellow hair."

When Nadya, 33, decided to be implanted with multiple embryos, Angela was stunned. She told RadarOnline.com: "I was very upset. She already has six beautiful children, why would she do this?

"To have them all is unconscionable to me. She really really has no idea what she's doing to her children and to me."

Nadya lives with Angela, a retired teacher, and Angela says Nadya contributes no money to the support of her own children. Eight people - soon to be 16 - are cramped into a small three-bedroom house and fed in shifts.

RadarOnline.com obtained exclusive photos inside the house, photos that are bound to raise more questions about Nadya's ability to care for so many children and a RadarOnline.com reporter described the interior as "filthy", with food on the walls.

"How she's going to cope, I don't know," Angela told RadarOnline.com about her daughter. "I'm really tired of taking care of the six children and need her to think about how she'll provide for all these children."

Angela told RadarOnline.com that Nadya turned her boyfriend into a sperm donor for all 14 kids, but refused to marry him. "He was in love with her and wanted to marry her," said Angela. "But Nadya wanted to have children on her own."

Nadya was so determined to have children, she first became pregnant at 16, Angela told RadarOnline.com. She miscarried, said Angela, and discovered she had blocked fallopian tubes.

"How she's going to cope, I don't know."Angela said that she and Nadya's father, Ed, begged one doctor not to implant any more embryos in Nadya, who already had six children. But Nadya found another doctor to implant six embryos, and two split, resulting in eight more babies. That doctor's decision to perform the in vitro has left the octuplets grandmother furious. "I'm really angry about that," she told RadarOnline.com.

Angela also voiced her anger over Nadya's claim she was raised in a dysfunctional family and was lonely as a child. "We raised her in a loving family and her father always spoiled her," Angela said.

"The truth is that Nadya hasn't worked since she started having her children," Angela, charged, "while Ed and I battled to pay her bills.

"Nadya promised to help me with the bills, but she never has. I lost a house because of it and now I'm struggling to look after her six. We had to put in bunk beds, feed them in shifts and there's children's clothing piled all over the house."

Angela told RadarOnline.com that she wasn't at the octuplets' birth because she was looking after the other six children. "But I saw the octuplets when they were two days old. They were so tiny and fragile, with bright purple skin, I was afraid to touch them but they're all doing well.

"Nadya has given them all Biblical names. Seven of them are dark-haired, but one, Noah, shows my side of the family. He looked so cute with his purple skin and bright yellow hair."

Blech.

[diggitydot]

Re: 6 + Octuplets = FOURTEEN!!!

Nadya Suleman is psycho.

So much word.

[MrsK]

Re: 6 + Octuplets = FOURTEEN!!!

Here's an interesting perspective:

MSNBC.com


Octuplets backlash: From celebration to boos
Experts: Negative reaction to mother's 8 babies reflects competing values
By Linda Carroll
msnbc.com contributor
updated 3:29 p.m. ET, Fri., Feb. 6, 2009
It didn’t take long for the story of the California octuplets to get ugly.

A little over a week ago Americans were jubilantly celebrating the healthy birth of octuplets in California. But as details about the new mom’s life emerged — that she is a single mother with six other kids at home and that all her children were conceived by having embryos implanted —the media and the public quickly turned on Nadya Suleman.

Talk-show hosts railed at her. The phantom physician presumed to be responsible for her in vitro procedure was lambasted. Everywhere there were cries to reform reproductive medicine. Internet bulletin boards filled with venomous shots at the 33-year-old mother, accusing her of being selfish and mercenary. She hired a publicist and is reportedly seeking millions to tell her story. In her first interview on TODAY she defended her motives for having so many children, telling anchor Ann Curry, “all I wanted was children. I wanted to be a mom. That's all I ever wanted in my life.”

Experts say the public's sudden and dramatic flip-flop from coo-ing celebration to resentful backlash highlights the clash between two competing sets of values: the rights of the individual and her obligations to society. Americans don’t want anyone making rules about family size.

“Americans are particularly reluctant to comment on another person’s choice of how many children to have,” says Josephine Johnston, a lawyer and research scholar at the Hastings Center. “And we tend to have an appetite for media coverage of unusual family situations.”

But we want people to act responsibly and to have only as many children as they can afford to raise. For example, it's been estimated that the hospital bill alone for delivering eight premature infants could top $1.3 million. Now everyone's wondering exactly how Suleman thought she was going to support her family, Johnston says, especially if the babies suffer developmental problems so common with premature deliveries.

Making matters worse in the eyes of many people, the delivery of the mom's eight babies by a Los Angeles hospital team of 46 doctors came at a bad economic time. Americans might still be celebrating Suleman’s bountiful brood if they weren’t worried about feeding their own, or fearful of losing their jobs and access to health care.

Why is that audiences cheer programs such as the reality show “Jon & Kate Plus 8" or eagerly follow the Duggars and their 18 children, but are apparently turned off by Suleman's saga?

Anthropologist Helen Fisher has no problem understanding the sudden change of heart. Both responses are hard-wired deep in our DNA — and they’re quite visceral, explains Fisher, a research professor at Rutgers University and author of “Why Him? Why Her?: Finding Real Love By Understanding Your Personality Type.”

“The whole point of the evolution of the brain is to create systems for passing on our DNA —that’s the payoff, passing our seed on to tomorrow,” says Fisher.

‘Disregarded the zeitgeist’
Our initial response to the births might be compared to what we feel when we see the happy winner of a big lottery collecting his check. From an evolutionary standpoint, Nadya Suleman has won the genetic jackpot, Fisher says. She’s managed to spread her seed widely.

But once people began to suspect that the eight babies were a result of a well-thought out plan, rather than the unpredictable side effect of a modern medical technique, opinions changed.

“They feel she’s gotten away with something,” Fisher says. “She’s gotten away with life’s greatest prize and we’re going to have to pay for it.”

Mom says she had 'deep need to connect'
In the interview with Ann Curry, Suleman said she never expected to have so many babies. Her goal, she said, was to have just one more.

According to Suleman, six embryos were transferred each time she underwent IVF. The eight fetuses that turned up this time were a surprise for everyone.

Suleman says she wanted a big family to make up for the isolation she felt as an only child growing up in what she called a ‘dysfuntional family.’ She wanted the babies because of a “deep need to connect.”

Ruth Jaffe, a psychoanalyst in private practice in Manhattan and Connecticut who specializes in women’s issues, found that response troubling.

Children shouldn’t have the responsibility of filling their parents’ emotional voids, Jaffe says.
“And why should one child not be enough?” she asks. “I would have to wonder why, once she had six, she would need to have more. It’s a dangerous direction to go in.”

Suleman may end up passing on feelings of isolation to her own children, Jaffe says. Numbers can work against you, she explains. “How good of an emotional connection can she have with 14 children?”


It might have been better for Suleman to have gotten counseling before attempting to cure her feelings of isolation by building a big family. That action may have simply postponed the inevitable. Years from now, “they may need a gigantic auditorium for the whole family to get therapy.”

Who will pay?
Concern about exactly who will pay for the children's medical costs is amplified by the current economic crisis, Fisher says.

“Right now people are trying to pull together and work as a community,” Fisher says. “They’re trying to clean out Wall Street. They’re thinking green. We’re in a contraction mode, not an expansion one. And here is a woman who has absolutely disregarded that zeitgeist.”

It’s as if Suleman went out and got eight new gas-guzzling Humvees while the rest of us were switching to fuel efficient Honda’s, says Fisher. “And now we’re the ones who will have to pay for all the potholes created by those Humvees.”

Ultimately, some of the controversy — and bad feelings — may be resolved once more facts come to light, experts say.


Jealous outrage?
Suleman says a fetility doctor implanted six embryos into her uterus and they developed into eight fetuses, but even so, the trend over the past decade or so has been to reduce multiple births, says Dr. Jamie Grifo, program director of the New York University Fertility Center.

Eight babies at once, Grifo says, “is a medical travesty.” The multiple births should be everyone’s focus, not the total number of children, Grifo says. And that’s simply because multiples increase the risks to both mom and her babies.

We don’t regulate how many children some gets to have, says Grifo. And trying to will lead to a slippery slope. “Where would that end,” he says. “We let 14-year-old unmarried girls have kids. We don’t neuter husbands of women with six kids.”

Another important question yet to be answered: Why did Suleman try for so many babies?

Some people believe Suleman did this for economic gain, says Jaffe, the psychoanalyst.

But, "it hasn’t been established that she is anything but someone who decided to carry all those fetuses to fruition,” says Jaffe, who has counseled women trying to decide whether to selectively reduce multiples.


Jaffe suspects that some of the outrage comes from jealousy — and hypocrisy.

“People do envy those who achieve instant fame,” she says. “And even if she was looking ahead to financial gain: What is so wrong with that? She’s got a commodity that grabs the attention of the world and she’s going to get rewarded. Why are we so morally outraged?”

Pointing to how forgiving Americans are of sports stars who’ve bent the rules to get ahead, Jaffe asks: “Why isn’t she allowed to ‘get away’ with having some kind of monetary feedback from her great accomplishment?”

Linda Carroll is a health and science writer living in New Jersey. Her work has appeared in The New York Times, Newsday, Health magazine and SmartMoney.

More on Octuplets | fertility

© 2009 msnbc.com. Reprints
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29039266/



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[SuzySunshine]

Re: 6 + Octuplets = FOURTEEN!!!

Jaffe suspects that some of the outrage comes from jealousy — and hypocrisy.

“People do envy those who achieve instant fame,” she says. “And even if she was looking ahead to financial gain: What is so wrong with that? She’s got a commodity that grabs the attention of the world and she’s going to get rewarded. Why are we so morally outraged?”

Why are people so morally outraged? Because they're CHILDREN not commodities. They have feelings, lives, costs and the fertility doctor should have his license yanked faster then I can count to 5! This woman can try to be as innocent as possible in this situation, I'm not buying it and obviously most of the country isn't either.

Its people like this that make everyone think all multiples are fertility drugs and people like this that give those that really NEED fertility treatments a bad name. Infertility is a disease and proper treatment and "cure" is ONE healthy child! This woman needs counseling.

[MDPhDWife]

Re: 6 + Octuplets = FOURTEEN!!!

Ugh, I had read previously that she said she wasn't on welfare only to read a report today saying she IS receiving food stamps and getting SSI for her first three kids! Her publicist said she doesn't consider food stamps and SSI welfare. WTF? I'm all for social programs, but I just don't believe in purposely bringing children into this world that you know damn well you cannot support financially and/or emotionally. If she's getting SSI for the first three then obviously she's got three special needs children and who knows how many of the octuplets are going to be special needs! This woman needs to have her head examined. :tsk:

[MrsK]

Re: 6 + Octuplets = FOURTEEN!!!

If she's getting SSI for the first three then obviously she's got three special needs children and who knows how many of the octuplets are going to be special needs! This woman needs to have her head examined. :tsk:

I read that one of her older children has autism. . .

[DCJenn]

Re: 6 + Octuplets = FOURTEEN!!!

Well, that's definitely the calm and soothing environment that helps kids with autism oh so very much.

That one fact, if true is enough to confirm that this isn't about 'loving children'. Maybe about loving 'having' children. As in the numbers, not the birthing.

I hope the local CPS is eyes on. What does she think is going to happen when they get home?

Jenn