Socialized Healthcare

[NYCHoosier]

Hmm... I can get an appointment with my PCP within a week and my gyno within 2 weeks (unless he's on vacation).

Trips to the ER have all been <6 hours total, including treatment.

Perhaps it's tougher in more rural areas of the US, but these are my experiences that create my perspective of medicine in the US.

I don't think it's perfect; it certainly isn't and needs a lot of work. But when you decrease or eliminate competition, you will [eventually] get a lower-quality product. Insurance companies have too much power right now. Customers need more choice, and insurance companies should be competing with each other. If I'm a freelancer in Pennsylvania, and I like a plan in Illinois, my state of residency shouldn't prevent me from getting my insurance through that company.
Also, health insurance shouldn't be tied to your job. It pains me to say that in a way because law firms (according to my PCP) have the best plans. (I may have a $1000 deductible, but everything I get is covered! And no co-pay! ...They even paid for 75% of my Malarone pills...). But anyway, yes, a big reason we're in this tricky situation right now is because insurance companies aren't competing with each other. Moving to a single-payer will have even less competition. Bad news bears.

[resisting the urge to repeat anecdotes about the healthcare in Canada from one of my firm's clients and the healthcare in Cuba from my friend's father...]

[Pollyanna]

I will NEVER EVER EVER buy a Chrysler. Ever. Ford all the way, baby.

Us too.

[McPants]

Hmm... I can get an appointment with my PCP within a week and my gyno within 2 weeks (unless he's on vacation).

This is also the case for both the UK and Sweden according to mine and the gf's experiences.

[poky]

Universal health care does not have to mean a decrease in competition. If you watch the video I posted a link to, you'll see an overview of how Switzerland's health care works. It's still the second or third most expensive per user, but it's a fraction of what the US spends, and it's not single-payer, but it is universal.

[GrayMatterWife]

In DH's program, every resident spends six months doing a rotation in Ireland. No one--even the most liberal of the crowd--comes back impressed. Socialized medicine rations care, limits availability to doctors, and (ultimately) determines who is worthy of receiving what treatment--and includes determining that some people are too old or too sick to warrant certain care that they would be able to obtain here. At least, that's what the returning residents have stories about.

Here's an interesting tidbit that I am not sure what to make of: apparently, the AMA is not going to back Obama's plan.

[oceanchild]

The AMA exists primarily to make sure physicians make as much money as possible, so it doesn't surprise me at all that they won't back Obama's plan.

My thought on the topic overall is that all health care reform is not "socialized medicine" and that anything that actually makes it through the congress is much more likely to fiddle at the margins than make any wholesale changes.

[McPants]

In DH's program, every resident spends six months doing a rotation in Ireland. No one--even the most liberal of the crowd--comes back impressed. Socialized medicine rations care, limits availability to doctors, and (ultimately) determines who is worthy of receiving what treatment--and includes determining that some people are too old or too sick to warrant certain care that they would be able to obtain here. At least, that's what the returning residents have stories about.

I guess it's a matter of preference. Should available resources compared to medical officials' perception of the patient's need or the patient's capacity to pay determine who is worthy of which treatment?

I would certainly never want to switch systems with the U.S. Besides, in almost all European countries, there are private options for those who don't want to settle for public healthcare. That said, the U.S. will not adopt socialized healthcare.

[SuzySunshine]

We had a very interesting conversation over dinner last night with another resident couple. The husband knows the CEO here very well who is retiring and I suspect will take a position with the healthcare reform under the Obama administration. After speaking to him I think even after just a few months of deeper research on this topic by the Obama administration what we end up with won't be anything close to what Obama originally proposed. Socialized? No, the US won't go that route, it won't ever happen. I don't think anyone can say what it will look like in the end but it won't look like the UK system but it probably also won't look like our current system.

[NYCHoosier]

Here's an interesting tidbit that I am not sure what to make of: apparently, the AMA is not going to back Obama's plan.

Is this just word on the street or is there an article/statement somewhere? I'd be curious to read/hear the AMA's perspective.

[GrayMatterWife]

I guess it's a matter of preference. Should available resources compared to medical officials' perception of the patient's need or the patient's capacity to pay determine who is worthy of which treatment?

I would certainly never want to switch systems with the U.S. Besides, in almost all European countries, there are private options for those who don't want to settle for public healthcare. That said, the U.S. will not adopt socialized healthcare.

Absolutely. I agree. It's a completely a matter of preference. I suspect my preference is just different that those who advocate for nationalize health care.

I would hardly hold European countries out as providing the standard of medical availability that I would want. I work incredibly hard to be able to purchase the very best insurance, that gives me the most choices and treatment options possible. I have no desire to give that up, for something substandard, where third-parties (namely medical professionals and the Government) decide what my medical "needs" are. I want as much control over my medical decisions as possible. I am not willing to give up that hard-earned privilege (for myself, and more importantly, for my children) because others can't afford it. I am not obligated to suffer because life is unfair and some people don't have the resources that I do.

That being said, I believe that it is important to get medical resources to people who genuinely cannot financially obtain insurance and are here legally. But taking away my options and the power of my pocketbook to obtain the best won't achieve that. It certainly hasn't in Europe. It lessens the competitiveness among doctors for excellence in patient care, and discourages R&D. Dumbing down the health care system to the lowest possible denominator will not improve the health care for all--it will just ensure that all of us receive a lesser standard of care.

Obama is completely full of crap regarding his claim that "anyone who currently has private insurance will be able to keep it." The result of his plan being implemented would be to discourage private health insurance and encourage getting on board with the Government's plan. It's much like what he's doing with Chrysler and GM. Instead of allowing these companies to go through bankruptcy and then become successful on strong, revised business plans, he's giving vouchers for anyone who will trade in their clunker for a new hybrid--creating a false demand, which is really Government-subsidizing. He'll do the same with health care: you're free to buy whatever policy you want, but the lesser-quality, crappy-access-guaranteed plan will be cheaper for your employer.

It short, he's going to do to healthcare what the Government did to Amtrak.

It's a deep violation of the free market policies that have made America the incredible success that it has been. It's turning us into...France. If you've ever done business with any company located in France, you know what I mean.

[McPants]

That being said, I believe that it is important to get medical resources to people who genuinely cannot financially obtain insurance and are here legally. But taking away my options and the power of my pocketbook to obtain the best won't achieve that. It certainly hasn't in Europe.

Are you saying that public healthcare in Europe isn't available to the public?

[SuzySunshine]

Are you saying that public healthcare in Europe isn't available to the public?

I won't speak for Abigail but I have a friend of a friend who was diagnosed with breast cancer in London - it was 3 months until she was able to see an oncologist, by then it was metastatic (sp?) and she died a year later. That is unacceptable IMO.

[SuzySunshine]

Here is the AMA article: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/11/us...&sq=ama&st=cse

[McPants]

I won't speak for Abigail but I have a friend of a friend who was diagnosed with breast cancer in London - it was 3 months until she was able to see an oncologist, by then it was metastatic (sp?) and she died a year later. That is unacceptable IMO.

I would expect the UK NHS to deem it unacceptable too. Recent statistics show that 99,9 % of urgent suspected breast cancer referrals received within 24 hours are seen within 2 weeks. For anyone interested, there are in-depth statistics available about the waiting times people encounter for various types of cancer referrals in the NHS.
http://www.performance.doh.gov.uk/cancerwaits/

It is deeply unfortunate that queues can and do develop in socialized healtcare systems, however I greatly prefer it to care only for those who can pay. People like Abigail have access to private healthcare options in the UK too, so they can swiftly bypass any potential queues.

There are lots of inefficiencies in the UK system, but using one friend of a friend's story to judge socialized healthcare as a whole is not particularily scientific.

[GrayMatterWife]

Are you saying that public healthcare in Europe isn't available to the public?

No, not at all. I'm saying that Europeans have fewer options, less guarantee of timely access, and less control over their healthcare, as compared to the average (but not every) American--from what I have heard first-hand from the many physicians I know who've practiced there, and from what I've read.