medicine and faith communities

[diggitydot]

As another non-religious person, I'll chime in.

I don't take issue with anyone electing to use prayer or their belief system to get themselves through a seemingly insurmountable situation. If it helps them through a tough spot, so be it. I only take issue when people get simplistically Calvinistic. The mindset that ABC wouldn't be happening to you if you were a bigger/better/more devout/less sinful XYZ seems inexcusably judgmental.

I felt that people were implying that I wasn't pregnant yet because I hadn't learned a spiritual lesson or hadn't fully given it to God.

I'm so sorry. That's horrible. I hope it was not anyone's intent to make you feel that way, and regardless I would be very sensitive about anyone treading anywhere close to that implication. I hated being told our miscarriages were "part of God's plan" (though interestingly no one in our church said anything like that). That was between me and God, not for anyone else's observation or comment. I know I have struggled to forgive a few friends who were really insensitive to our fertility issues. It sounds like maybe that's part of what's going on with with you and these people? If so I hope you find some peace.

[GrayMatterWife]

Medpedspouse - I'm sorry about your friend, she is lucky to have you at her side.

GMW - have you ever seen gifted hands? It relates to a nsgn and his faith, its one of my favorite movies because its so touching and its also based on a true story.

Ditto on the sentiment to Medpedspouse. ((hugs to you!))

MarissaNicole: I didn't realize it had been made into a movie! I read the book, though. Very compelling story...

More generally, I am not sure how I would feel if a tenant of faith taught that my medical condition (or my lack of peace with God's will) is a result of a lack of faith, or an inability to truly commit the matter to God, or likewise. I guess I would feel extremely discouraged and confused, especially if I was earnestly pursuing God's will. I just don't know--it's not a tenant of my faith; in fact, it's kind of the opposite of it. It must be very difficult to be in the medical community via your spouse, and in that particular religious community due to your faith. I am not sure what your faith/denomination is, but perhaps there are people within your community who specialize in religious counseling on this issue?

I totally agree with this. I'm not remotely religious, and while I do believe in a God or a higher power/s, I could never believe in a vengeful and/or remonstrative God.

As for the issue of blending faith and medicine, this is another reason I'm not a fan of organized religions in general. I think people should be able to find their own truth, and follow that path. If my child needed a blood transfusion, but my religion forbade such a thing, am I to choose between damming myself, my child, etc. - or simply let them die? I couldn't ever believe In a God that would make such edicts.

Oh - my "totally believe with" was referencing diggitydots response. Apparently I can't reply with quote on the iPad.

[MissCrabette]

Is it possible that the "giving it to God" comment was misunderstood? I find that it's so difficult to find something comforting to say to a person who's struggling, and often times people rely on such phrases. It doesn't have to mean that they're judging your faith. It can simply be that they couldn't come up with anything else better to say at a moment's notice.

I'm not sure how this discussion morphed, since I wasn't meaning to talk about this specific issue alone... However, it is nice to hear, en masse, that sickness should be cured in a way that makes most sense and that it is not due to some unrelated spiritual deficit. Seems like it should be obvious, doesn't it? I don't think most people would disagree, but in practice, things get really mixed up.

I want to respond to everyone... forgoing quotes:

MrsK - Back then, it was too hard not to talk about it with anyone close to us, because it took over our lives for a number of years. Now, I'm just mad and waiting for the universe to issue me a formal apology, which is ridiculous. But yes, not talking about it is probably the best option.

Oceanchild - I'm sure it will never be a perfect match... I'm just hoping not to feel frustrated.

Heidi - Part of my question was how you deal with the differences and the things people say, and I figure atheists would have something to say about it - which you did. You just don't talk about it.

Tara - Me too. It's just all the other people in my community who haven't "arrived." j/k

diggitydot - Calvinistic, meaning not doing anything about it at all because everything is God's will? If so, don't get me started... I didn't think most Calvinists took it to that degree, though.

Shakti - I went through a relatively minor belief conflict and change before IVF. It's amazing how being faced with your *own* life, plus some good facts, can change one's perspective. Not that everyone does change (or always should) when faced with these things. It's especially troubling in cases where a child's health is hanging in the balance.

MarissaNicole - I do think this (relaxing) probably is what some people meant, and probably what happens in some cases. And it's not bad advice during the first 6-12 months, depending on age and whether there are other known problems. After that, it should be considered a medical problem, regardless of stress level.

MissCrabette - I'm sure everyone was well-meaning, and it's interesting that the people who made the oddest comments were the ones who were most committed to praying - for which I am unspeakably grateful. I think there were a couple people, though, who genuinely believed that this would be all over for me once I found the correct spiritual contortion. It is easier to be tolerant if I can just remind myself that most people really do *want* to be kind.

Selu - Exactly, yes. Thanks, beyond words, for understanding.

GMW - Also, thanks for understanding. Yeah, I think I've been mad about this long enough that it's time to talk to somebody. Once we find the place we want to go, I think I'll talk with a leader. At least then I'll feel heard, and I can let it go when other people say things that don't sit right.

[DCJenn]

Deb-

Faith and medicine - there's a volatile combination! (or at least there's some potential)

I think 'here'- on the site- there are two things at work- 1) we all know and understand that we all come from vastly different universes and have widely divergent opinions on everything- but also understand that the person who has the most polar opposite opinions to yours is also a struggling medical spouse. That tends to humanize ourselves which is unlike most 'real life' settings we find ourselves negotiating. I don't understand the whole faith thing but dammit, if one of you was sick as a dog and needed someone to take your kids to church, I'd do it. I wouldn't get it but I'd do it (and keep my thoughts to myself!) and 2) we've all been around the block enough to know that one of the things we have that we CAN treasure about each other is our differences. I remember Suzanne did a really nice review of some of the parts of Islam that confuses people- like "Allah" is the arabic word for God, not God (as in God Him /Herself)- no different than the word for God in other languages. We have resources here. If I want to know about St. ____ I know I can ask Tara or V-girl or any other of our Catholic (or Anglican) friends. If I want to understand how the Mormon wedding works- we have Amiens or Rapunzel to ask. If I want to share a really cool lecture from the Ethical Society, I know people will at least look at it! (My family belongs to the American Humanist Association-an Atheist organization)

We're a good group. I'm hoping that you'll be able to find that in your real life. It's a relief to find a place where you can exhale and be yourself.

Jenn

[madeintaiwan]

GMW - have you ever seen gifted hands? It relates to a nsgn and his faith, its one of my favorite movies because its so touching and its also based on a true story.

Off topic, but Ben Carson spoke at DH's graduation. He is amazing.

[Meenah]

First, I have to say I really admire Ben Carson, read his books, and respect him.

Second, I don't really understand how highly trained / educated individuals, who have trained based on evidenced based medicine, can really believe in blind faith.

If the Preacher says "cut here, trust in God", should the surgeon cut. I sure hope not. I have my own personal doubts about organized religion for many reasons. I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic schools in a predominantly Southern Baptist region, so I havn't been "kept in the dark" as someone once suggested to me. I just need proof, and blind faith doesn't work for me. I have to admit, I also have days when I wonder if I'm wrong!!!!!!

[medpedspouse]

Second, I don't really understand how highly trained / educated individuals, who have trained based on evidenced based medicine, can really believe in blind faith.

If the Preacher says "cut here, trust in God", should the surgeon cut. I sure hope not.

I agree, if the preacher says cut here, trust in God - I would not cut UNLESS the preacher is a surgeon too. However, medicine (unfortunately) is not always black and white.

In our belief system, our prayer is "God, you know what I know (knowledge), what I have learned/what I can do (Skill) and how I feel (Attitude). Please help me help my patient." Sometimes you can't go by evidence-based medicine because what the patient or family needs has nothing to do with medicine. I can only "leave it to God" to help me say/do the "right" thing.

Just giving my perspective - just wanted to say that it does not have to be one or the other. Yesterday, while I was at the hospital and I held my friends hand (who does not believe in God), I said a prayer for comfort and wisdom. Call it passing on good vibes, etc - it did help.

Again, just my perspective, what works for DH and me AND I admit, we may not be highly trained/educated individuals - we are always learning and have not gotten "there" - don't think we ever will... so, consider the source.

[diggitydot]

Deb -- by "simplistically Calvinistic" I meant when it is implied that good things happen to good people and bad things (or undesired outcomes) happen to those who aren't faithful enough.

[Meenah]

What I meant by "highly educated / trained" I meant "someone /anyone in medicine". In medicine we demand proof in many ways. In every other part of life we also demand proof. In faith, there is blind faith in something not tangible, unable to prove. I'm not saying it is right or wrong, some days I wish I could have faith in something I can't see or can't be proven.

I'm sorry about your friend. I didn't mean to "stir the pot" here, I know my response sounded crass, that was not my intention.

[medpedspouse]

Fly by again because I'm backbatvthe hospital. Don't mean to hijack. The only reason I bring up my friend is because the only way I know how to comfort one who does not believe is to pray to the God I believe in. If that makes any sense. It is just an example of how our faith works with medicine.

As far as highly trained. Even though DH and I are both in medicine, we sometimes do not feel highly trained regarding some of our patients needs - that's what I meant.

So, again just wanted to give an example - our perspective which is only worth 2 cents ( if that). .

Jenn, I think anyone would be extremely lucky to have you as a friend. I'm so looking forward to finding a place to breathe. I know my language failed to be all-inclusive, but that is my intent. I'd love to hear Suzanne's perspective. Since this is probably the last thing on her mind right now, I'll search for her thread.

Luanne - No worries. When you talk about faith and evidence-based medicine, it's kind of hard not to go there, especially if you're atheist or agnostic. You weren't crass - just stating your view.

I'd be an atheist right now, too, if it weren't for several bizarre, unrelated things I've seen (and no, I wasn't high ). It's not enough to prove anything to anyone else, just enough to make me believe in a personally involved, higher power.

I think this is a hard topic, because most people believe in their faith enough to defend it to the death - and I'm so glad we don't have to. It's hard to say there are people of my faith who drive me nuts, but maybe most people truly don't experience that. I think I just got myself into a particularly bad spot with my medical issue. I hear so many anovulatory women counseled to take evening primrose oil and pray. I can't just let it go. "Get thee to an Ob/Gyn, amen."

I also encounter many people who are wary of science and research. I can't let that go, either. If they believe "God created the world" (as I do, with every one of the words in that phrase being up for definition), then it doesn't hurt to discover truth through honest, evidence-based research about that world.

I dunno. This problem seems somewhat unique to me. I hope it will be over in nine months, and I can find a place where I don't always have to hold my tongue.