Creative non-violence & self defense

[SoonerTexan]

So, I found a Groupon-like deal for self-defense classes and asked a friend if she would be interested in taking it with me. She said she is a believer in "creative non-violence" or "acting passively to avoid harm," so she isn't interested.

I have never heard of this before and frankly I kind of think it is crap. Of course I get non-violence in the context of the civil rights movement, etc., but individual self-defense???

Not to say I'm for kicking the crap out of someone unnecessarily, but I feel if someone is trying to harm/kill/rape/abduct me, etc., avoiding injury to them shouldn't exactly be my top priority at that very moment.

[SoonerTexan]

I wonder what your friend would do if she was attacked?

I'm not sure, really, especially since she is petite. She's lived in Dallas's premiere 98% white bubble her whole life--maybe that has something to do with it?

[Thirteen]

Become a victim, would be my guess. Or passively ask them to please cease what they're doing??

Marissa, I'm all for you becoming a person with the ability to use deadly force.

[MissCrabette]

I suppose I could understand her not wanting to use violence IF she had any concrete ideas for this "creative non-violence" she's talking about. I'm guessing she doesn't have a clue what she would do if she were attacked. Not everything you learn in one of these classes is necessarily violent so she would probably still benefit from it even if she chooses non-violence. Me? Non-violence would be the last thing on my mind if someone tried to hurt me.

Is she pacifist? (As in... part of a religious group that is pacifist?)

DH pretty much insisted that I have a way to defend myself & the kids. I think without practicing the responses, though, I'd freeze in that situation. A self-defense course sounds great! I hope you find someone who will go with you!

[GrayMatterWife]

Everyone is for nonviolence until they are looking down the barrel of a gun.

[GrayMatterWife]

I'm not sure, really, especially since she is petite. She's lived in Dallas's premiere 98% white bubble her whole life--maybe that has something to do with it?

Don't take self-defense tips from any from Highland Park. A threat to her is the prospect of some underestimating the carats in her engagement ring.

[SoonerTexan]

GraymatterWife--spot on. She is a pacifist, but it isn't religious. It's more of an overly-sheltered-idealist-recent-college-grad brand of pacifism. I pressed her about it in the message asking why she wouldn't do everything she could to get away and this is what she said:

I would, but in a different way. One of my old coworkers at the YMCA was attacked in her own home and all she did was pray loudly for herself and her attacker, and he fled, even though no one was home and he could've gotten away with it.

Plus, men who are rapists are operating on a pleasure of domination, and fighting back only makes it more pleasurable. What they DON'T want is for you to mess with the social script they're enacting, by praying or singing or going limp. Furthermore, something like what happened my coworker would have much more of an effect on the man's psyche than the usual reaction he gets of fear and violence. Rape and attack won't end until the people committing the acts are reformed, and nonviolence is just one thing that might help.

I feel like the chances of this working are VERY slim. And why get yourself in that situation to begin with if you can avoid it by busting out the pepper spray? Apparently she has taken two self-defense classes and feels this is the way to go. I just don't get it. What if they have no sexual motivation and are just trying to mug you?

ETA: Not a slam against Christianity--I believe in faith, prayer, and even supernatural protection. I also believe God gave me a brain to get myself to a class and a hand to slam their nose into their face (or a similar maneuver)

And this guy is still out there? Instead of sporting an identifiable broken nose or more? I'm perplexed how one case of nonviolence is going to send a message to all the other people out there with untreated psychiatric problems. It's not like a nonviolent political protest.

God gave me a brain to get myself to a class and a hand to slam their nose into their face (or a similar maneuver)

I couldn't agree with you more. It seems different to me, for some reason, if pacifism on an individual level is something she grew up with instead of something she came up with on her own. If she ever has children, that may change how she feels. In the meantime, I truly hope she never has a reason to put her views to the test.

ETA - If singing loudly was something that was recommended in her self-defense classes (and I'm curious if it was), that's different, but it sounded like she was against the classes.

[medpedspouse]

Don't know which SD class you are taking. If it is the RAD class, the first thing they teach you is how to NOT get yourself in a situation where you will have to defend yourself. I wonder what kind of classes your friend did because when my "attackerS" (volunteer policemen) grabbed me, they were not going to let go until I physically did whatever I had to do to make that happen. That situation totally made me view the world differently...which is their point...empowering for sure but makes you a whole lot more aware and cautious.

BTW - great idea to bring a buddy along to class because you will always have to practice, practice, practice. In RAD you can always go back and join classes to practice. I would bet that other SD programs are the same way. I lost my buddy when we moved here and here (aka podunk-ville) does not have a RAD program.

[GrayMatterWife]

GraymatterWife--spot on. She is a pacifist, but it isn't religious. It's more of an overly-sheltered-idealist-recent-college-grad brand of pacifism.

I wouldn't give her uninformed comments too much thought. It must be nice to live on her planet. I've lived in Highland Park (in a garage apartment, as an employee of the family that owned the estate). I'm assuming she's from there, given your earlier reference (but you could easily substitute some parts of Plano for Highland Park). Ninety-five percent of those people have absolutely no idea what life is like beyond 75205. all their stores, schools, churches, shopping, friends, and experiences are in that area. I'm not saying they aren't nice people; I have many friends who live there. But they are (mostly self-admittedly) sheltered. I don't mean to be dismissive, but she sounds completely naive...

Someone else said that the first rule of self-defense is NOT getting yourself into the situation where you have to defend yourself. SO true. Life ain't the movies. Very few people are going to be able to suddenly turn into that chick from "Alias." And if you carry a firearm, DON'T PULL IT unless you WILL IMMEDIATELY USE IT. It's not designed to persuade; it's designed to kill. If you think of it as a way of nonviolently convincing someone not to hurt you, you're going to end up shot with your own weapon.

Not really sure what she's talking about, but I guess I agree that the tactic she described her Y co-worker employing may be ONE useful tool in self-defense. I have also heard that breaking the fantasy/social script -- by singing nursery rhymes, throwing up on yourself, whatever-- can be more effective than physically fighting back in thwarting an attempted rape. That makes sense to me. I pray I never have to test it out.

Most of the self-defense lessons I've had have focused first and foremost on avoiding situations where you may have to defend yourself. Is that passive self-defense? If so, I subscribe to that theory far more than anything requiring the use of my spindly arms.

[SoonerTexan]

So,to clarify, she has taken the classes, but I think she later rejected the idea of using any sort of violence even in self-defense. She is a Christian (non-denominational), and I think this belief stems from that but isn't directly related to her particular "brand" of Christianity, if that makes sense.

Not really sure what she's talking about, but I guess I agree that the tactic she described her Y co-worker employing may be ONE useful tool in self-defense.

I do agree with this. In the case of her coworker, it might have been the best idea. What I don't agree with is the idea that you shouldn't use ANY violence against someone who is trying to hurt you. I think her idea is that if everyone did this, it could cause change the way Gandhi or MLK Jr. did. What I don't understand is how not resisting when someone puts you into a choke hold, etc. is going to help a cause--you may not get the chance to "witness" to them before you are dead.

I did a little research on it--what I found seems to suggest that it was previously thought that women should not resist in a rape or attack lest they get further injured. However, now, research seems to be saying that women who resist are more likely to stop a rape without too much increase of injury, while those who don't end up get raped 90-something % of the time. Of course it isn't just limited to rape, but that is what I found seemed to be focused on.

Since I graduated, I cant access most of the full-text research articles anymore (boo--never thought I'd miss that), so I don't really know exactly how true what I found is--does anybody have experience or knowledge about what works best? I'd honestly love to know.

Sooner Texan - Perhaps if your friend is the silver spoon type her form of defense is money? As in she would offer it? Or is she more into ransoms for kidnapping? Really, I'm kind of flabbergasted by her response.

Most of the self-defense lessons I've had have focused first and foremost on avoiding situations where you may have to defend yourself. Is that passive self-defense?

Nah--I don't think it is a money issue or an actual taught self-defense technique. I think what she is getting at is that she believes it would be better to die for this cause than cause someone else harm, even if they are harming you. From what I gather, she sees nothing wrong with avoiding dangerous situations or even trying to get away--just no use of any physical force.

Just seems overly idealistic to me.

[ladymoreta]

I went to a self defense class in college, and the instructor said that often women are worried about hurting their attackers. I admit the popping out eyeballs makes me a little squeamish. But the teacher said if you're ever in that situation, imagine that instead of you, the attacker is going to rape/kidnap your daughter (or any little girl you know). Defend yourself as if you're defending her, and you (hopefully) won't have as many qualms about doing whatever it takes.

[DCJenn]

I've taught and taken enough PMAB classes (Prevention and Management of Aggressive Behaviors) over my lifetime that it's sort of second nature at this point. You (the universal you) should know how to defend yourself and also how to remove yourself from situations when you're stuck- like w/ human bites and human hair pulling. (and strangling, etc.)

Bites suck. I was bitten by this little sh*t of a kid who has down syndrome and had his parents convinced that he was a perfect angel. The little f-er bit me right on the fleshy part of my hand between my thumb and first finger. Yeah, I got out of that bite and I'll bet he didn't ever do it again because it requires pushing in to the biter, not pulling away as you'd instinctively try to do. I think it totally freaked him out. Didn't hurt him though.

Jenn