The Deceptive Income of Physicians

[Michele]

I'm putting this here bc Im not sure where else to put it.

http://benbrownmd.wordpress.com/


One paragraph:
The median gross income among internal medicine physicians is $205,441.7 The median gross income among high school teachers, including the value of benefits but excluding their pension, is about $50,000 per year.10 Accounting for time spent training, student loan debt, years worked, hours worked per year and disproportionate income taxes – the net adjusted hourly wage of an internist is $34.46 per hour, while that of a high school teacher is $30.47 per hour.* Though the gross income of an internal medicine physician is 4 times that of a high school teacher, the adjusted net hourly wage of an internal medicine physician is only 1.13 times that of a high school teacher.* Most people would argue that high school teachers are not paid enough, yet for some reason most people would also argue that physicians are paid too much.

[poky]

This is kindof a big "duh", and is part of why I'd never go to med school, and part of why I'm so FREAKING glad DH and I have no debt (since the debt payoff is the largest hit to the doctor's salary). One thing I did notice, though, is that they're not figuring in the teacher's student loan payoff, too (would widen the gap a little bit). Also, most teachers don't have the option of working more hours to get more money overall (there are only so many summer jobs)..and why would you include benefits in the teacher's salary but not the doctor's? (would widen the gap even more).

[Vanquisher]

This is kindof a big "duh", and is part of why I'd never go to med school, and part of why I'm so FREAKING glad DH and I have no debt (since the debt payoff is the largest hit to the doctor's salary). One thing I did notice, though, is that they're not figuring in the teacher's student loan payoff, too (would widen the gap a little bit). Also, most teachers don't have the option of working more hours to get more money overall (there are only so many summer jobs)..and why would you include benefits in the teacher's salary but not the doctor's? (would widen the gap even more).

Well, most teachers don't have to pay for a graduate degree, so I don't know how much that would widen the gap. I have 14K in student loan debt for my Bachelor's Degree. DH has nearly 300K for his degree. That's a huge disparity. Now, my mother has a Master's Degree (nealry a Ph.D.) too, but her degree didn't cost 300K. Furthermore, she also gets paid more because of her degree. Also, teachers benefits and often pensions and retirement are included in their salaries as a given. A lot of doctors do not have benefits packages. We don't. We pay for and maintain our own life insurance, health insurance, disability insurance, malpractice insurance, retirement, etc. My parents are both teachers. My dad is retired, my mom is not. My dad receives a pension, and health insurance for 5 years after he quit working. My mom receives health insurance now, and will have a pension when she retires, plus health insurance after she retires until they are eligible for social security and medicare.

Furthermore, teachers are able to begin making their salaries about 10 years sooner than physicians. I don't know that the disparity is widened all that much. Certainly there are a lot of different factors and this is just averages, but that would be my guess for why benefits aren't included for physicians. I think a large number of physicians pay for their own benefits. Then you get into academic, private, etc., which is hard to quanitfy. I did not read the article, but sometimes physician salaries are calculated in such a way that the gross total includes the value of the benefits they receive, if any.

I'm not saying teachers are paid too much. That is not my point. Clearly, I didn't want to be a teacher! However, I agree that the gap isn't as wide as you would surmise.

[houseelf]

Nodding my head yes and politely agreeing that the actual math does not suprise me at all.

[ides]

Not surprised but it's nice to see it presented in a thoughtful manner. I'm so tired of the idea that drs are super rich. Some are and most aren't. Being a dr isn't what it used to be- in more ways than just compensation.

[poky]

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with what it's saying, I was just being a bit of a devil's advocate and picking nits. I looked through it more thoroughly, and they DID actually account for the student loan repayment for the teacher, and I think it's a shame that the extra 7 years of being able to buy into a retirement plan as a teacher aren't counted - counting the benefits for the teacher and not for the doctor probably doesn't make up for that...depending on how much a teacher can put away for retirement out of their first seven years of salary. The example was in California - I'm sure bringing in $42K/year net and having to pay off $100K in student loans out of that is bringing you pretty close to living month to month just to have a home, car, and food in a lot of California.

Didn't read the article, but from the many teachers I know (including the parents of good friends) a masters is required to get a salary anywhere near $50K. In fact my best friend's mom couldn't finish her masters until both kids had graduated high school, and because of the lack of masters her income was low despite her 15 years of teaching full time. Today many states require you to have a masters w/in 10 years of teaching, if you don't have one when you begin teaching. When I thought I wanted to special ed, I found most states required you to have a masters to teach. Additionally, teachers put in a LOT more work than just 8:30-3:30. Most teachers say they are working well until 6, and even at night. High school teachers may put in the most hours. I mean they aren't paid extra to help the senior's build their float for homecoming. Also, I doubt the numbers for teachers salaries account for all the supplies they pay for out of pocket.

I don't know, I think a family can live off a dr's income just fine (even if pinching pennies for retirement and paying for kid college funds), but I don't know of one teacher's family who can live off of one teacher's income with anywhere near the same quality of life. If you are teacher, you have to be really frugal to save for your retirement, and you may have little or no money for your kid's college fund.

I don't think dr's are over all the kind of rich most American's suppose them to be, but a family's quality of life if much higher IMO unless the teacher is a well paid private school, or a high paying state like MN or WI.

[houseelf]

I don't think dr's are over all the kind of rich most American's suppose them to be,

IMHO, debunking the myth of the majority of physicians being obscenely wealthy is the premise of the article. Teachers' salaries only were employed as a comparitive point. As Heidi pointed out, no one thinks making ends meet on a teacher's salary is easy. However, popular sentiment is that streets are paved in gold when one has an MD after his/her name.

[spotty_dog]

The article purported to be dispelling one myth but then installed a new one to take its place. "Dawkters roll in money like Scrooge McDuck" might be false but so is "All dawkters have similar lifestyles" and certainly "Dawkters all have the exact same financial outlook as high school teachers" is just as false as the original premise. I've gotta say, given that my husband makes more than the average doctor, works fewer hours than the average doctor, has less debt than average and a better COL than many? I'd be completely embarrassed to even begin to hint at comparing my husband's wage earning potential to that of a high school teacher in my town. So the poll at the end of that article, "Are doctors overpaid," I think launches completely the wrong discussion based on the facts. I can certainly buy that a general practitioner in California with a full load of student loan debt could be living a fairly middle-class lifestyle. I the author is extrapolating that to propose that all doctors deserve our pity instead of our envy based on their financial outlook. And that's a load of bull.

[Michele]

SpottyDog, you touched on one of the big flaws I found. I think in general doctors aren't overpaid. But if you compare salaries in California, doctors are paid less there and teachers are paid more. If you compare them in a smaller or more rural area, the difference between their salaries will be greater.

The article purported to be dispelling one myth but then installed a new one to take its place. "Dawkters roll in money like Scrooge McDuck" might be false but so is "All dawkters have similar lifestyles" and certainly "Dawkters all have the exact same financial outlook as high school teachers" is just as false as the original premise. I've gotta say, given that my husband makes more than the average doctor, works fewer hours than the average doctor, has less debt than average and a better COL than many? I'd be completely embarrassed to even begin to hint at comparing my husband's wage earning potential to that of a high school teacher in my town. So the poll at the end of that article, "Are doctors overpaid," I think launches completely the wrong discussion based on the facts. I can certainly buy that a general practitioner in California with a full load of student loan debt could be living a fairly middle-class lifestyle. I the author is extrapolating that to propose that all doctors deserve our pity instead of our envy based on their financial outlook. And that's a load of bull.

YES.

There's probably variation in teacher salaries, too. My BIL is a high school teacher with a master's degree in an inner city school. Their benefits are crap, and they barely make ends meet. He could switch to another school, but he'd be starting all over on tenure & pay scale. Plus, he's very good at working with immigrant families there (just received an award). His "worth" will never show up in his paycheck.

My other BIL is in the middle of a family practice residency. I imagine finances will be tight while they pay off loans (although they may have a stipend to do rural primary care).

Unless something unforeseen happens, we'll probably be on the higher end of the spectrum. I wouldn't like my first BIL to read this with us in mind...

[Chrisada]

DH and I were both teachers in a major metro area and started off with a salary of $29,000 a year. Retirement was not great and many teachers including myself, paid extra into a private retirement fund. All of the male teachers I knew worked second jobs mostly at Kroger or a dept store to support their families. A master's does not increase your pay by that much. DH makes more as an intern than he would if he had stayed in teaching. Even after medical school, residency, and debt we will be better off financially than any teacher I know. I don't know how you can even compare the two.

[Flynn]

DH and I were both teachers in a major metro area and started off with a salary of $29,000 a year. Retirement was not great and many teachers including myself, paid extra into a private retirement fund. All of the male teachers I knew worked second jobs mostly at Kroger or a dept store to support their families. A master's does not increase your pay by that much. DH makes more as an intern than he would if he had stayed in teaching. Even after medical school, residency, and debt we will be better off financially than any teacher I know. I don't know how you can even compare the two.

I agree with the above. Even with a Masters, the most I ever made as a teacher before taxes was 32,000. My mom with 25 years experience plus a masters made 42,000. I am fairly certain most states have salary ceilings for teachers. To me it's like comparing apples with roadkill.

[Auspicious]

He's not saying physicians don't make more total--he's comparing per hour to per hour. He calculates teachers working 40 hours per week for 38 weeks per year to physicians working 57 hours per week for 48 weeks per year. And notes that both put in lots of time off the clock.

Also, all you teachers should move to IL--my old gym teacher made something like 80K in a very middling school district.
http://www.teachersalaryinfo.com/ill...-district-118/

[Deebs]

Julie - I'm glad you posted first. I've been reading some of the responses here wondering what teachers are paid elsewhere (and why they don't move to the suburbs of Chicago). I also grew up in Illinois, and have friends that came out of undergrad making above $50,000 as first year high school teachers. Of those same friends, many are the sole income provider for families of four and five. Several of my mom's friends retired out making 6 figures and drawing a pension at 80% of their income level, only to now be subbing in the same school district for additional monies (don't worry - they all make sure they don't work too much as to not jeopardize their pensions). Most of those went to grad school - paid for by their jobs. And yes, they have very hard jobs for the 9 months of the year they work. Our schools in Illinois are really struggling with the state failing to pay them, and those with the highest teacher salaries are hurting the worst. Even with high property taxes, the economy has just killed those districts, yet they are still obligated to pay their teachers a premium because of union contracts. I don't disagree with great teachers making that kind of money. It's hard for me to swallow the fact that crummy teachers make the same (and I think most teachers would agree with me). I worked in the same area with pediatricians and FPs just pulling in $100,000 or just a little more. DH's first job out of training wasn't much more than that, either. If you factor in the cost of malpractice insurance in Illinois currently, there are many teachers making more than physicians before you factor in student loans, lack of pensions, and school time - just raw take-home. I guess Illinois must be an anomaly, but my friends who did go into education (other than those working for Chicago Public Schools) realize that they've got it great.

All that said, I don't know that it's a meaningful comparison. Many things about compensation are crazy to me. There are some specialties within medicine that make way more than others, which I actually find more baffling. I was taken out to lunch by a device rep one day after finding him "parked" outside the OR, totaling up his commission for the number of screws used in a back surgery. I don't remember the exact figure, but his take home from this single surgery was over $1000. DH worked for a doc who did expert witness testimony and would always give his opinion in a manner that he "guessed" would favor the plaintiff over the defendant, because his compensation would be higher if he was an expert for the prosecution. I don't know if money and compensation ever made sense to me, but the older I get, the less it does. DH didn't go into this for the money. Guess it's a good thing, huh?