The Fascination with Ivy Leagues

Now that I think about it, I agree with Michele, there is a certain amount of prejudice towards Southern schools. My husband had one interviewer at a Midwestern program who asked "what a Texas boy like him" was doing so far North... A lot of this really is about "regional" prejudices and preferences.

[Deebs]

Wait a minute - you have schools in the South? Who knew?

[NYCHoosier]

I agree big names open doors. I went to an undergrad that has a better name than its USNews ranking and have benefited from it.
Also I think the Northeast is the worst with the snob mentality. A native midwesterner, I'm ashamed at how impressed I've been by how bright my coworkers are. (I mean, of course they're smart; the company is too successful to be run by dummies).

That said, I do want to stand up for my Cornell friends. Some of my favorite people went there, and I don't think I've ever met a pretentious Cornell alumnus. Some Columbia kids are alright, too.

ST - once you guys are there a little longer, I think the Yale kids will realize that the stars in med school aren't necessarily those from the "top schools". DH and [another iMSNer's DH] were pretty much the superstars of their class. DH went to a really good Midwesterner engineering undergrad that nobody out East has heard of, and the other guy went to an undergrad that's known for being a bit of a party school. Kids from Ivies and other top schools like Berkeley asked them for help.
But, you can give them benefit of the doubt that they were just "homesick" for Yale. I know when I meet someone who has ever lived in New York, I just want to talk NY. Maybe it was just that?

[Sheherezade]

I went to an Ivy undergrad and grad school. DH as well. It's kind of disturbing to hear so much stereotyping of "people like us" as pompous jerks. I don't think anyone knows this about us where we live. We don't run around bragging. Actually, the whole Ivy thing gets to me in an entirely different way because we live in a community of Chua-types - and they look down on US without realizing that we are actually what you find once you reach the Ivies. It's kind of ridiculous. I never met anyone named Buffy, never wore polo shirts or plaid shorts and I did not row crew. The stereotyping is so off from what I encountered in my many, many years both attending and working at Ivy league schools that it is offensive.

[poky]

What's a chua-type?

[SoonerTexan]

But, you can give them benefit of the doubt that they were just "homesick" for Yale.

No, it was definitely more than that. As in, we sat down, said hi, tried to start a convo and they started blankly at us and went back to talking to each other.

Again, I certainly DONT think they are all snobs, and I think it is a good investment for grad school. My real question was what is with the obsession of parents/society in general with getting their kids into an Ivy when in the end it may not be the best choice for them (though maybe it might be too). I guess I know too many people who passed up substantial scholarships to go to "the" schools and are now at home loaded with debt with no job (mostly due to majors), not sure what they want to do next.

[GrayMatterWife]

What's a chua-type?

Chua is the authoress of that recently released book about being a "Tiger Mother." "Chua-types" must be moms who are like her--super-intense and performance-focused in childrearing.

[GrayMatterWife]

The stereotyping is so off from what I encountered in my many, many years both attending and working at Ivy league schools that it is offensive.

No offense intended. I was one of the people who has had years of dealing with elitist, obnoxious Ivy League lawyers. But, as I said, they are in the minority. Most Ivy Leaguers I know don't really talk about it, any more than anyone else talks about their schooling. It's just that, those who do fulfill the "stereotype," REALLY fulfill the stereotype--sort of comically. Of course, I also know a lot of lawyers from Texas who wear THAT on their sleeves, too. You know, the whole "cowboy," rough-and-tumble thing.

Back when I was in Texas, I knew this one guy who walked the walk without talking the talk. He was freaking brilliant, Harvard undergrad, Yale Law...and he wore a bolo tie and cowboy boots. And he never bragged about anything, ever. (And he had plenty to brag about.) And it really worked in his favor. Out of town attorneys sometimes underestimated him because of his slow-talking and region wardrobe.

[GrayMatterWife]

Wait a minute - you have schools in the South? Who knew?

Wait a minute - since when is Texas part of the "South"? Texas is southwest!

Ms.BS: Was that interviewer at WashU? That totally sounds like someone I know here.

[MissCrabette]

My real question was what is with the obsession of parents/society in general with getting their kids into an Ivy when in the end it may not be the best choice for them (though maybe it might be too).

Maybe my answer is too simplistic, but is it so wrong to want to prove to yourself that you're good enough to get into a school like that? Even if you don't attend, I think it's still a great accomplishment. If it's not a good fit for someone, that's an entirely different issue in my opinion. As for parents, they start early on with, "my 3-year-old knows the alphabet, does yours?" I see that as a natural progression. *shrug*

I guess I know too many people who passed up substantial scholarships to go to "the" schools and are now at home loaded with debt with no job (mostly due to majors), not sure what they want to do next.

I would argue that those people you are talking about wouldn't have done any better anywhere else. They might have had a smaller debt load, sure, but I don't think they were hurt by attending an Ivy League school as much as they were hurt by their own inability to figure out what they want from life and work towards it.

[scarlett09]

I went to an Ivy undergrad and grad school. DH as well. It's kind of disturbing to hear so much stereotyping of "people like us" as pompous jerks. I don't think anyone knows this about us where we live. We don't run around bragging. Actually, the whole Ivy thing gets to me in an entirely different way because we live in a community of Chua-types - and they look down on US without realizing that we are actually what you find once you reach the Ivies. It's kind of ridiculous. I never met anyone named Buffy, never wore polo shirts or plaid shorts and I did not row crew. The stereotyping is so off from what I encountered in my many, many years both attending and working at Ivy league schools that it is offensive.

I hope I did not offend. In hindsight, I was merely projecting my familial issues with educational choices onto the subject at hand. And that stereotype that you mention fits the family members I mentioned to a "T". Except they don't know anyone named Buffy.

I know quite a few peeps, including another cousin from a different side of my family, who went to UPenn. All of them are so cool and individualistic. But isn't it amazing how much we project and stereotype based upon what we see and hear about people before we truly know them? Never judge a book by its cover is the ideal, but far more difficult in practice.

[NYCHoosier]

No, it was definitely more than that. As in, we sat down, said hi, tried to start a convo and they started blankly at us and went back to talking to each other.

Again, I certainly DONT think they are all snobs, and I think it is a good investment for grad school. My real question was what is with the obsession of parents/society in general with getting their kids into an Ivy when in the end it may not be the best choice for them (though maybe it might be too). I guess I know too many people who passed up substantial scholarships to go to "the" schools and are now at home loaded with debt with no job (mostly due to majors), not sure what they want to do next.

re the bolded:
I'm not sure I agree. If you're going to study liberal arts, school name really helps when finding a job. Those Cornell kids I know? Liberal arts majors who have really good jobs in industries like PR and business. They're getting these jobs over business students from schools like Pace.
They're definitely great for grad school, too, particularly if your undergrad is less well known, but if you have it for one or the other, you still get the network and aid is usually better for undergrad.

I should note that I'm also a big proponent of education for the sake of education. I think these schools offer a lot in terms of research opportunities, class offerings and an overall experience. I think there's a lot to be said for being challenged by your classmates and to study a less "practical" major. Not that this should trump all things or that it's for everyone, of course, but it's a balance.

re the parents:
I agree the focus should be determining what the best for the student, not the parents' ideal. I don't like the idea of parents projecting their desired school choice whether it be Harvard, Notre Dame or OSU. However, if parents encourage the excellence required by Ivies (without sacrificing the happiness of their children), presumably, their children will then have more choices overall.

[NYCHoosier]

My real question was what is with the obsession of parents/society in general with getting their kids into an Ivy when in the end it may not be the best choice for them (though maybe it might be too).

Maybe my answer is too simplistic, but is it so wrong to want to prove to yourself that you're good enough to get into a school like that? Even if you don't attend, I think it's still a great accomplishment. If it's not a good fit for someone, that's an entirely different issue in my opinion. As for parents, they start early on with, "my 3-year-old knows the alphabet, does yours?" I see that as a natural progression. *shrug*

I guess I know too many people who passed up substantial scholarships to go to "the" schools and are now at home loaded with debt with no job (mostly due to majors), not sure what they want to do next.

I would argue that those people you are talking about wouldn't have done any better anywhere else. They might have had a smaller debt load, sure, but I don't think they were hurt by attending an Ivy League school as much as they were hurt by their own inability to figure out what they want from life and work towards it.

Similar points I was trying to make but better put, I think.

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

My DH and I both went to Ivy Schools for undergrad (different ones, rivals in fact!).

The "Ivy League" as it's strictly defined is actually just an athletic conference that happens to be made up of some of the older schools in the eastern part of our country (there are several schools older in fact). These schools banded together to make similar choices about athletics (i.e. no athletic scholarships, pretty high minimum academic standards for athletes, etc.). They could not compete with schools who were offering 80 football scholarships/year and wanted to focus on academics, not on baby professional athletes. (I'm NOT saying other schools don't focus on academics, just that these schools decided to have rules about recruiting). In doing so, they forfeited things like bowl games, televion revenue, etc.

Just like any other school, I had kids who were total asshats and kids who are my best friends. My husband's college football teammates are some of the nicest people on the planet. Do some people get wrapped up in "the Ivy League", of COURSE. But I would argue that just as many people get wrapped up in bashing the Ivy League schools for snobbery, elitism, etc. It's unbelievable how many people will say "oh those guys are all jerks, snobs, (something worse)", but then say "but I got in there and decided not to go." Ok, thanks for that. So you wanted to be a jerk too, is that it????

My DH and I don't mention school unless someone asks us. It's not a big deal where we went to school. We don't care where our friends went other than to get to know them better. Sometimes the reaction is something like above (mean-spirited comments) OR it's like, WOW, you're SO smart. I don't get that one either. You didn't think I was SO smart 30 seconds ago, did you? I'd rather have you judge my intelligence on my conversation, knowledge or opinions. I know a lot of "dumb" people that went to the Ivies.

It's hard for me to tell you how it's impacted my life since I didn't go to college anywhere else. I graduated and got a hard-charging consulting job in a boutique firm and could have made partner at 30 if I didn't come to Africa. I might have done that if I'd gone to a State Univ also. There's no way to tell. I have friends that will likely be titans of industry, doctors, and lawyers and also friends who are teachers, social workers, and other less "pretigious" jobs (if we're judge prestige on general society, NOT value of the work).

I had a great time in college and have lots of school pride and spirit, just like anyone else. I love my school's network because people are very eager to help. I've met tons of alums while traveling (most recently in Petra, Jordan!) and people are always thrilled to discuss our time at our Alma Mater. We loved our school but I think other people loved theirs. I just don't think it's a big deal. I admit to getting excited when I meet someone who went to the same schools as DH and I but it's not so we can drink Manhattans and talk about the good old boys club, it's so we can talk about the homecoming bonfire, the weather up at school, or what dorm we lived in.

I do think the obsession is fascinating in an academic way though. The bashing but then justifying why people could have gone, totally got in but didn't go, or could have gotten in but didn't even apply. I mean, YES, there are a lot of places I could have gone too but I didn't for WHATEVER reason (preference, money, location, academic qualifications, etc). Should we all sit around and list colleges where we could have gone? Why not just be thrilled with the education we got and work hard to better our lot in life (whatever that means to you)? Maybe that's simplistic but that's how I feel.

[diggitydot]

I don't get the big deal, either pro or con. I know peeps from several different schools (Ivy, private, and state colleges/universities). Some are awesome, while others are assholes. School choice makes no difference in their level of douchbaggery.