Gender Identity in a Ten-Year-Old

[PrincessFiona]

Which, Tara, brings us back to this community. We all may have different feelings and thoughts, but I imagine us being willing to help each other bear those crosses regardless of the differences we might have sometimes.

[Pollyanna]

Which, Tara, brings us back to this community. We all may have different feelings and thoughts, but I imagine us being willing to help each other bear those crosses regardless of the differences we might have sometimes.

Amen!!!!!

[PrincessFiona]

The name of the psychologist who does the retraining is named Zucker. He says his success rate working with children is 80%. There are articles that vilify him and those that lift him up. I can't find the article from years ago. It basically compared Zuker's method to the idea of allowing a child to choose. Obviously, this is a tough issue. I imagine that we all want to draw on our own personal experiences. I would be curious if there is ant unbiased research comparing these methods.

[PrincessFiona]

http://www.npr.org/tablet/#story/?storyId=90229789

Review of Zucker's school of thought. Interesting in there is comparison o a disorder where a person considers a body part to be so alien that they want it amputated. Interesting discussion of relationship to homosexuality, comorbidities and whether it is a mental illness.

[diggitydot]

There's a huge difference between whimsical play and a person's fundamental psyche. One changes over time, the other is steadfast. I think most parents are capable of telling the difference in their own kids -- or should be.

It's not about assigning adult concepts onto childhood. It's about respecting whomever a child is without others projecting their own emotional baggage onto them.

[diggitydot]

So what happens when even after the "gender-training" a child is still far more interested in the "wrong" toys/colors/activities/play? What's the next step?

I know very feminine young women who played with trucks/Legos/Erector sets, climbed trees, made mud pies, who were still fundamentally girly feeling. I know very masculine men who played dress up with their sisters in pink ballerina tutus, played with dolls, and begged to have their nails painted when their sisters were giving each other manicures who grew into straight men. Play doesn't affect gender identity. Just as gender identity isn't determined by exterior forces.

[diggitydot]

Would you say the same about sexual orientation?

FWIW, I didn't get the impression from the article that it was a one-time declaration from a sibling that put the idea into their heads and they just chose to run with it. My impression was that it was a final straw where they realized it wasn't "play" and accepted that even the twin (who is usually the absolute closest person on earth to the other twin) recognized the issue. That can be very powerful.

[diggitydot]

Precisely because they're not capable of fully appreciating the ramifications is why they should be listened to when they consistently make substantial declarations as to who feel they are. Yes, it is VERY young to make life-altering decisions, but what if it alters their life for the better? Can you imagine being forced to be something or someone you're not? What if you were forced to be an athiest, liberal, lesbian, Jenn? Would you feel totally OK with it if that's what your parents felt you "should" be?

[diggitydot]

While I agree that the article isn't specifically about sexual orientation, gender identification is something as fundamental and personal as sexual orientation.

[PrincessFiona]

Diggitydot,

Dr Zucker, who has treated more than 500 children with his gender training says that 80% of the children treated with the method successfully adopt their own gender. Roughly 20% do not. For the 20% that don't, the therapy then moved towards gender reassignment. Also, he only engages in the attempts at training with young children. The research shows that adolescents who continue to struggle do not respond to retraining. His approach is to help in whatever way the child needs. Not barbaric really.


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[diggitydot]

I'm glad there's a larger group that he's drawing his conclusions from and that at some point he recognizes the need for gender reassignment in those kids who have GI issues. The therapy as described doesn't sound necessarily barbaric in and of itself (and I don't recall posting that it did), but expecting a loved one to bend their psyche to conform to someone else's idea of what they "should" be is abhorrent to me.

Doing whatever a parent can to determine whether it's whimsy or a GI issue is loving. Finding a GI issue and trying to "re-educate" a child to pretend to be the desired gender is cruel.

[corn poffi]

I'm the one who called it barbaric or medieval or whatever. I'll take credit for that. I also don't think that finding out whether the kid is truly having gender issues is either of those things, but if the discussion turned to re-education, I wouldn't hesitate to call that either of those terms.

[PrincessFiona]

The bottom line for me is that there are options for small children beyond simply accepting their proclamations. I read through some of Dr. Zuckers stuff online and found it interesting that success in having a child feel comfortable as their gender when they were very little had a lot to do with parental support. The children who struggled the most had parents who were willing to let them grow their hair long, wear dresses from the get-go and who then balked at the program and needed the most support along the way. He also draws a distinction between homosexuality and the disorder of gender identity and suggests that many children are able to feel comfortable in their own identity as they grow into adolescence. These teen-agers, young adults don't tend to have a high suicide rate or suffer greater amounts of depression and anxiety ...

And so this is really where the debate is in my eyes. How do I treat my young child who comes to me with gender confusion that may or may not be gender identity disorder. If they do have GID, what are my options? Do I lock my child into GID by permitting cross-dressing in school, offer hormone therapy that will cause sterility and do so because 1. I love my child and 2. I support the struggles of the GLBT community and it isn't kind or politically correct to do otherwise? or do I learn what ALL of the options are and try these things first.

This is why I say that I was surprised by the lack of discussion initially. It turns out there ARE some options and that these options have been tried with a rather good rate of success. They were not explored earlier in this discussion. The parents in the article allowed their child to change genders without initial attempts at any kind of therapy aimed at helping him become comfortable with his own gender. I can't say whether it would have worked or not, but by allowing him to go to become a girl while at school sort of locked him in. I would most certainly offer treatment of this nature to my young child first before embarking on reassigning identity, and I think something like this should have been tried with this child. I couldn't live with myself if I didn't exhaust all options for my own kids. If my child fell into the 20% of children unable to feel comfortable in their gender then ... well ... at that point, gender reassignment becomes an option. Critics of Dr. Zucker try to paint him as anti-gay, anti-transgender and really all he is doing is trying to help the children that he can to accept their own gender ... and he supports those that can't in their gender reassignment.

I mentioned it before, but there is a disorder (body integrity integration disorder) where people feel that a part of their body (an arm, leg or whatever) is not their own. They become so disturbed and upset by it that they can not tolerate it. Many of them seek out attempts to have the offending body part removed. I think there are some parallels that can be drawn here, though that also becomes politically incorrect because of the definite need to have sensitivity when it comes to something impacting someone's sexuality. I understand the reason for this. We don't need to ostracize or label gays as being mentally ill. At the same time, I do wonder if there is a component of mental illness similar to this other illness at work? We would never allow anyone to amputate a body part due to their over-arching misery about having a body part that doesn't belong to them. We clearly see that as a sign of mental illness...I mean how can you not ... although someone with this disorder is also born that way and has no control over these intense feelings. There are many behavioral approaches to this problem. If someone is born one gender but suffers terribly that they feel they are another gender...well....that could really be viewed as mental illness too...even though they are born that way and have no control over it. It is very different from being homosexual, which I do believe can not be changed. I don't think someone can choose their sexuality and I have never heard of a treatment program that was effective at changing it. It seems to be common sense to try some behavioral approaches....even though that is not the current Zeitgeist.

Kris

[corn poffi]

How do we know that the family didn't try other options? I highly doubt a doctor would allow for the hormone therapy if this was a hastily made decision. Gender reassignment takes years and countless therapy sessions. I can't imagine the parents didn't do the same, especially since a doctor agreed to the therapy.

[diggitydot]

Yeah, I've been wondering where the assumption that these parents haven't already done their due diligence is coming from. The article doesn't mention one way or another. That a doc is ready and willing to engage in the hormone therapy makes it sound like they have, to me.