Don't quit this day job. (part time mom docs)

[SuzySunshine]

I'm sorry but if she were a primary care doc I would have given her argument a lot more weight - but she's not! She's bitching about a field she didn't even choose, get over it!

[Vanquisher]

I'm sorry, I feel you have the right to work part time, man or woman, if you are a doctor. If you can arrange it so that it works well for you and your patients, all the better. I definitely think certain specialties are more suited to it. I think we do need to train more doctors in this country; however, I wonder where the line for that is. At some point, you really have to only have your best and your brightest. Others aren't going to cut it anyway.

It's unfortunate that part-time workers take advantage of the situation that they have to the large detriment of their co-workers. I would think that job sharing would be an excellent idea. From a patient perspective, I think that if you require having the same physician everytime you go in as opposed to a choice between several, than that is something you need to look at as the patient. Part-time physicians should not have equal share when it comes to benefits, voting rights, etc. I am not suggesting that. What I am suggesting is that it is small-minded and part of the vast negative culture of medicine to suggest that there cannot be a work/life balance. To suggest that all physicians need to dedicate themselves fully to the full-time practice of medicine and prioritize that above all else is not healthy. The burden should not be placed on full-time counterparts, but rather shared between part-time physicians.

I would think dermatology or pathology, for example, would be an excellent choice for part-time physicians. In these fields, the possibility for job sharing and shift work seems easy. No emergencies and less need for a intimate doctor/patient relationship. Certainly, I think that OB/Gyn is one of the most demanding fields in medicine, and part-time work in that seems less feasible. However, given the right attitude amongst 3-4 part-time physicians who are willing to share the call and patient load while NOT dumping it all on a full-time colleague would be possible, but certainly more difficult to accomplish, and it definitely could not be treated as shift work. If you have a delivery or c-section or emergency of another nature, you do it, knowing that this is the specialty you chose and how you need to dedicate yourself to it. For the most part though, many OB offices have rotating schedules for their patients where if a woman goes into labor, the on-call physician will deliver the baby, and the woman will have seen all the doctors in the practice throughout the course of her pregnancy.

It is not a black/white issue, but what in medicine is? Oh yes, I know, insurance companies suck.

[Pollyanna]

I sort of ... agree and disagree with her.

We have a huge problem with part-timers in primary care here. Huge. They all want to work mornings (from 8/9-11:30), none of them want to job/patient share, and they don't want to pick up their pagers/cell phones once they are at soccer with their kids, etc. That being said, they want to have the same voting rights/insurance/benefits as their full-time counterparts. The consequence of this is that patient care suffers. To top it off, they are opposed to mid-levels (who often come in and are twice as productive and frankly have more experience than they do actually seeing patients!) There is currently a waiting list for primary care at the clinic for over a year to be seen as a new patient. To be clear, these docs don't have to deal with the paperwork because they are employed by the hospital group here and their are coders etc who manage all of that.

There have been multiple occasion where Thomas has had to stay late and admit a patient who is not his because (for example) a part-timer ordered a CT, left, and didn't pick up her pager and the patient needed immediate medical care. He can't get the school vacations off or teacher inservice days because the part-timers get them off (even if their kids are highschoolers ... and hey ... it shouldn't matter. What about equality here?) The consequence of all of this is that a great deal of resentment has built up between the full-time men and WOMEN and the part-timers.

Going part-time has to be done right for it to work for patients and colleagues. There has to be a job/patient share and guidelines need to be established to make sure that colleagues aren't the ones stuck holding the ball (and missing their own child's recital while you are at ballet/karate/soccer). Any criticisms usually end up in an anti-women argument instead of being seen as what they are ... an attempt to make sure that patients are taken care of and that the colleagues are treated fairly.

This is definitely not a black/white issue.

Kri

Yes. I don't have much time now but this part-time mentality is going to really hurt OB/GYN's. The current training field is more than 50% women and so many of them want to work part-time when they finish residency. Not only that but they don't want to deliver babies because the hours are too long and unpredictable. You don't have to be a genius to figure out where that is going to leave the patients in about 10 years.

[SuzySunshine]

I think part of this issue is entitlement. A lot of docs feel like they have worked their tails off for X number of years so they deserve

same voting rights/insurance/benefits

This is part of what is wrong with medicine as a whole, it needs to be run more like a business. In the business world or almost any other field you don't get the same rights as a full time co-worker if you're only part time and doctors who choose to go part time need to realize that. If they make the choice to work part time, that is their right - its anyone's right - but they have to realize EVERYTHING work related including compensation, insurance, voting, etc. is pretty much cut in half.

But telling someone they can't, or shouldn't, pick a specialty because they may want to go part time is ridiculous.

And yes, there need to be more residents, in all areas, but like she said if the government won't approve/pay for it, its not going to happen.

[oceanchild]

I'm sorry, I feel you have the right to work part time, man or woman, if you are a doctor. If you can arrange it so that it works well for you and your patients, all the better. I definitely think certain specialties are more suited to it. I think we do need to train more doctors in this country; however, I wonder where the line for that is. At some point, you really have to only have your best and your brightest. Others aren't going to cut it anyway.

It's unfortunate that part-time workers take advantage of the situation that they have to the large detriment of their co-workers. I would think that job sharing would be an excellent idea. From a patient perspective, I think that if you require having the same physician everytime you go in as opposed to a choice between several, than that is something you need to look at as the patient. Part-time physicians should not have equal share when it comes to benefits, voting rights, etc. I am not suggesting that. What I am suggesting is that it is small-minded and part of the vast negative culture of medicine to suggest that there cannot be a work/life balance. To suggest that all physicians need to dedicate themselves fully to the full-time practice of medicine and prioritize that above all else is not healthy. The burden should not be placed on full-time counterparts, but rather shared between part-time physicians.

I agree with this. I really, really, really believe in part-time work. I believe in it for men and women, for doctors and bureaucrats. I saw this article thanks to Michelle Au, and I was super irritated about it.

First it irritates me to suggest that this only matters in medicine, that dawkters are so much more important than everyone else.

Second it irritates me to suggest that your degree is a waste if you aren't using it full-time. My sister has a biology degree and does lighting design for rock concerts. My brother has a philosophy degree and does stand-up and improv comedy. Should they be made to repay their financial aid? The money spent on education is a gamble we take as a society that those who are educated will benefit us all. It isn't perfect; it shouldn't be.

And third it irritates me to suggest that part-time work is simply never viable. See above.

[Auspicious]

And yes, there need to be more residents, in all areas,

Oh, no more residents in pathology, please, we already have far too many. Which is interesting, because parts of pathology do lend themselves well to part-time work* and there is some part-time work available, but with an oversupply of pathologists, if you want to go part-time and it doesn't benefit the other doctors, they just say no. Don't these people have contracts or partnership agreements or something? One of the jobs my husband interviewed for, they had hired a pathologist right out of training, after two years and a baby she asked to go part time, they said no, she left to go to Ameripath (big mega-lab), and they were hiring her replacement.

At the practice he's joining, their only part-timer is also their only non-partnership-track pathologist, by mutual agreement. Seems fair.


*Basic stuff that anyone can sign out their stack of slides and go home. For subspecialty stuff you have to be seeing X number of marrows or whatever per year to have your skills considered viable. I don't know that you could get it in a part-time position.

[houseelf]

I find myself nodding with every post, whether they agree or disagree with the original author. Two points which either haven't been mentioned or need reiterated. 1) You don't know how you will feel about your career post kids until you have them. To discourage women to go into certain fields is disingenious. Just like Corporate America discovered that companies with women inthe board room tend to be more profitable, practices with female physicians probably deliver more comprehensive care. (speculating, but there is fodder for someone's research. 2) As I've said a hundred times before, there will be no equality until our society deems fatherhood as equally important to a child's wellbeing.

written on the fly...sorry in advance if this isn't cohesive...

[PrincessFiona]

I don't have a problem with part time anything (including medicine). I have to admit that I'd be more likely to select a full-time surgeon though because they likely do more cases.

Entitlement probably sums it up. Wanting part-time but not job sharing/patient sharing? Totally wrong.

Heidi, can you imagine trying to hire a full-time position for billing and coding but getting almost exclusively part-time applicants? No problem, right? What if everyone you hire only wants to work mornings and then won't share the billing with their co-worker ala "I'm a trained professional and I want my own billing. I won't share the job with someone else!". That might work until someone got behind. "sorry, but my shift ends at noon. I can't get to that bill". "Sorry, I won't do her billing".

Part time has to work for everyone involved.

Kris


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[Vishenka69]

This is a very hot issue in DH's practice. About a third of the partners are women and some have expressed interest in going part-time, however, they're not willing to give up any of the full-time benefits or share them 50/50. On one hand, what they're demanding isn't fair, on the other hand a disgruntled doctor isn't someone I'd like in my care as a patient. In anesthesiology, there's a "mommy track" that's an employee position with no calls/weekends. So to some degree it is a family friendly specialty. I also liked Michelle Au's reply much better than the original article. The author sounds angry that the new generation of doctors doesn't have to work as hard as she did.

I also completely agree that fathers should be expected and held accountable for being there for their children. Although according to DH, there are only two male docs at his practice who are expected to be home and helping during their non-working hours, him and another guy. Ironically enough I immediately hit it off with that guy's wife, we joke that we're the bitchiest wives in the group. Not to say that other men are bad fathers but I feel that becoming parents was a joint decision and as such he's responsible for pitching in as much as possible.

[Phoebe]

Our pediatrician is part-time, my ob/gyn has gone to working 4 days a week now that she has 3 young kids and a friend of mine from high school left pediatrics to raise her 4 kids (her husband is a neurosurgeon). A mother of my daughter's friend, works as a radiologist in a job share situation. I can understand Sibert's argument about taking up space in med school and training. However, I think people should be allowed to make the decision to work part-time or leave a field no matter what their career choices.

[MrsK]

I've heard the same "taking up space in school" argument about non-practicing lawyers. It is usually made by people who do not think that women shold be admitted to law school (yes, dinosaurs do still roam the Earth).s.

[v-girl]

I have two docs who do not work full-time office hours. My general doc is off at 3 and I don't think she works Fridays. It's never been an issue since I prefer morning appointments and if I get sick during office hours but she isn't there, one of her partners will see me. If I get sick after office hours, I go to Care Now or have DH treat me.

My OB/GYN is not in his office on Fridays. He will answer pages, but his Fridays are spent volunteering at a crisis pregnancy center. This has obviously never been an issue since he has delivered all three of my kids, 4 of one friend's kids, 6 of another friend's, and probably half the others at my church. LOL

[SuzySunshine]

The neurosurgeon that DH is going to work with next year isn't in the hospital, clinic or OR on Wednesdays - he works at a small clinic in southern WA. Is he getting paid or volunteering? I have no idea - but my point is he's a male, very well respected, neurosurgeon who is not available to his OHSU patients on Wednesdays. Does that make him a bad doctor? I HIGHLY doubt it.

This lady just rubs me the wrong way. Can you tell?

[PrincessFiona]

Veronica, your situation works for you because morning appts work best for u and u have a dh who can prescribe. Also, you are fairly healthy and the partners can jump in. I wonder if they have to see their patients too and how they feel?

Our pedi is part-time. We had to switch after Aidan's seizures. Her lack of availability was an issue.


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[Vanquisher]

Heidi, can you imagine trying to hire a full-time position for billing and coding but getting almost exclusively part-time applicants? No problem, right? What if everyone you hire only wants to work mornings and then won't share the billing with their co-worker ala "I'm a trained professional and I want my own billing. I won't share the job with someone else!". That might work until someone got behind. "sorry, but my shift ends at noon. I can't get to that bill". "Sorry, I won't do her billing".

Part time has to work for everyone involved.

Kris


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Absolutely. Which is why I wouldn't hire that person. If I am hiring for a full-time position, I expect a full-time employee. I fail to see how it is the fault of the employee, though, if they can get a part-time gig that they desire. I also fail to see how it is the employer's fault if they are getting what they want out of an employee. Now as a co-worker to a part-time employee who was dumping their work on me while they enjoyed 100% of the benefits that I enjoyed? No. Not cool. I do have 2 part-time employees right now though. They get half as much paid time off. They do not get health insurance, dental, or life insurance. I am going to have a 3rd part-timer soon, and she will also not have full-time benefits. Their jobs are separate and distinct, and no one will have to shoulder their burdens.

If I had an employee that wanted to cut back to part-time, and I valued that employee, I would probably allow it, but with that would also come revocation of full-time benefits.