Article on doctors salaries

[diggitydot]

I heart your commiemommy, Kris.

[scrub-jay]

Yes, but countries with socialized medicine have a far different approach to medical training (as you mentioned). Many Americans use the argument that physicians have a moral obligation to treat the sick to justify their sense of entitlement. Are you entitled to health care JUST because you are sick? This is the logic behind many successful socialist medical systems. However, the U.S. medical system is still capitalistic, all the way through training and into attending hood. If the health care system was reformed to be more socialist (or single payer government sponsored), but not the training, then there would be an extreme shortage of physicians (who would rack up $200+ in student loans without the potential means to pay it back?) and although the sick would be "entitled" to health care, there would not be enough physicians to treat them. Same reason we see a shortage of primary care physicians and a surplus of specialists.

A couple good sites if anyone is curious:

http://www.rand.org/topics/health-and-health-care.html (think tank that explored many of the possible reform options)

http://www.healthcare.gov/ (info on the new PPACA)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...roundtheworld/ (pbs documentary "sick around the world" comparing a few health care systems with the US)

[PrincessFiona]

Crystal, the European countries that I'm thinking of don't have socialized medicine per say. Most of them have the option of either paying monthly premiums for govt. insurance or higher premiums for private insurance...and yes their are issues with their system just like their are with ours. Can you tell me who is deserving of treatment when they are sick and who isn't? Look at your little one. If he develops leukemia, is he entitled to care? Why? What if he develops juvenile diabetes? Is he entitled to see an endocrinologist? Why your child? Because he is your heart walking outside of your body? Would you feel angry if you (working hard to raise your child while your dh goes to medical school) developed a critical illness and you were last in line for care that is less than stellar because his insurance as a med student is crappy? Won't happen to you, because as a doctor's wife, you will always get care asap. That isn't true for other hard working families.

It's an anecdote, but I know someone who had to change professions completely and move in order to get adequate healthcare coverage for his son with Leukemia. What a clusterfuck of suck.

Is living an entitlement? I don't know...What about the whole: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness thing in the declaration of independence? ... Not worthy of mention. Is it for you? Can we let you go since you aren't the doc ... you're just the wife? How do we decide who gets care and who doesn't?

Copied from the WHO website ... at least the US ranks above Slovenia. We can try and come up with all kinds of bs answers why, but at the end of the day, we just cook with water too (even though our buildings look fancier) and our water ... might not be as good as we think. Let's be honest. We limit the number of docs too so that we can keep incomes up. If we produced more doctors, we'd have to split the pie up more. We need to have free medical education, salaries that are more even throughout specialties so that we have enough primary care docs and specialists and quit the elitist thinking.

WHO rankings:

Rank Country

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland



1.The US has the most expensive healthcare system in the world. It is almost twice as expensive as every other developed nation. This is largely due to administrative costs which account for 19-25% of healthcare costs, and up to 34% at for-profit hospitals.

2.Other than South Africa, America is the only developed country in the world that does not provide healthcare for all of its citizens.

3.Yet, the US ranks 26th in infant mortality and 24th in the number of healthy years a person can expect to live - putting America’s healthcare system in the company of Cuba and Slovenia rather than Canada and Western European nations.

4.The reality is that, with the exception of Italy, Americans are more dissatisfied with their healthcare than are the citizens of every other developed nation, including England, France, Germany, and Canada. Moreover, US doctors spend less time with patients that do doctors in other nations.

[PrincessFiona]

I heart your commiemommy, Kris.

I heart you too!

[scrub-jay]

Kris,
Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing the ethics surrounding capitalist medicine, nor a discussion of the ethical theories that could be applied to justify medicine, patient care, or medical research (Utilitarianism, Feminist/Care Ethics, Kant...etc). I was generalizing "socialist medical systems" because I did not want go into the nuances of each system I find successful. I should also preface that each "successful" system is not without disadvantages and I haven't seen a "perfect" system yet. I was attempting to illustrate a problem with the belief that we could "fix" the current system in one shot (single-payer for example). If we made it an entitlement, then we have to address the personal expense in training or the new system would collapse. And to answer your questions on a more personal note, I am currently working because the med student insurance is terrible and we have been lucky to have my coverage when our daughter was hospitalized a few months ago. As a side note- this may all change if employers decide to not offer health insurance due to the changes from PPACA.

[PrincessFiona]

Im not a supporter of single payer either

[scrub-jay]

Im not a supporter of single payer either

Nor am I. I just think that fixing our system requires a more nuanced view than the general public (or most politicians) are willing to take.

[PrincessFiona]

We agree then!

[scrub-jay]

yes! I was not conveying it well... This is why I don't jump into the debates..my tone is so hard to depict!

[PrincessFiona]

Ha. Dont fel bad. I debated myself!

[reciprocity]

[snip]

I think we need to be looking at this issue much differently.

Kris

very good post, thank you for sharing your views, I couldn't agree more

I can't read this crap... our loan disbursement notice came in the mail again. It's fun when you realize that what is already owed could've bought a house AND we're only half way through med school. Yea, good times.

Hmmpff, tell me about it! When I consider that our current and ever-growing debt could buy us a small mansion in most of the U.S. it makes me want to . But I really try my best to not think about it. Although I recently made an appointment with a financial analyst/planner to see if he/she can help us properly manage our funds and pay down some of our debt as we our credits are now BOTH crapped out and our kids have yet to get to college.

[AmeliePoulain]

In other countries, they also go to med school almost for free. I might be wrong but I think my DH payed a pretty small fee. My French teacher confirmed the same today about college being almost free in France compared to the US. Many American medical students are going out of the country because tuition is ridiculous here. It's crazy that after going through everything they endure, they have all this debt! They didn't consider that... it evens out IF they make more in the US. Although, I don't think Drs make as much as they did in the past so maybe it's just in the specialties they mentioned. Drs deserve to make more, I doubt anyone really understands exactly what they go through :/