Santa?

[diggitydot]

Sure, but the holiday was created by the religious for the purpose of the religious frou-frou. No matter how society has secularized or commercialized it, the entire reason that Christmas exists is to celebrate Christ's birth. Christmas IS celebrating the birth of Christ. That's the definition of Christmas. If you do it all and just don't do the religious frou-frou, you're not really celebrating Christmas, even if you call it Christmas.

I disagree.

Jesus wasn't born on 12/25. That date was commandeered by early Christians to take over a pagan holiday already in existence. So, is it a pagan day or a Christian day? Both. Neither. Who gives a shit? Celebrate what you want, how you want.

[corn poffi]

What DD said. I will never understand the obsession with caring what people do in the privacy of their own homes. As long as nobody's getting hurt, who cares?

[poky]

I disagree.

Jesus wasn't born on 12/25. That date was commandeered by early Christians to take over a pagan holiday already in existence. So, is it a pagan day or a Christian day? Both. Neither. Who gives a shit? Celebrate what you want, how you want.

Yeah, seems to me like "you should celebrate the solstice, not Christmas, if you're not Christian" is splitting semantic hairs.

[Pollyanna]

But, as a practicing liturgical Christian, I am glad that non-religious people still "observe" Christmas, even if it is not an observance that is connected to the Faith. While, on one hand, it sort of seems like a religious holiday has been bastardized, stripped of its valid definition and re-defined in secular terms, and turned into a generic, feel-good gift-centered commercialism-worshipping day, that is a pretty cynical, dim view. God loves everyone, observant or not, believing or not, and calls us to love one another. If Christmas can be celebrated outside the Faith in a way that allows people to express their love for one another, that is a good thing. The alternative would not be better--for Christmas to be forgotten by all but the faithful.

Completely agree.

I see HollyDay's point in that, without the religious observance, it is hard to say that you are legitimately celebrating Christmas (that is, the Feast of the Nativity--"Christ's Mass"). At least, not in any sense of its historical sense. It isn't a day of good feelings, or familial love, of togetherness. It's the observance on the Christian liturgical calendar of the birth of the Savior.

But, as a practicing liturgical Christian, I am glad that non-religious people still "observe" Christmas, even if it is not an observance that is connected to the Faith. While, on one hand, it sort of seems like a religious holiday has been bastardized, stripped of its valid definition and re-defined in secular terms, and turned into a generic, feel-good gift-centered commercialism-worshipping day, that is a pretty cynical, dim view. God loves everyone, observant or not, believing or not, and calls us to love one another. If Christmas can be celebrated outside the Faith in a way that allows people to express their love for one another, that is a good thing. The alternative would not be better--for Christmas to be forgotten by all but the faithful.

I understand your point, BUT, if everyone is celebrating Christmas, even people who are decidedly NOT Christian, isn't the real Christmas already being forgotten? I think I'd rather see Christmas only celebrated by the faithful. Otherwise you get what we have now, which is a holiday that has been diluted to the point of irrelevance.

[Pollyanna]

I understand your point, BUT, if everyone is celebrating Christmas, even people who are decidedly NOT Christian, isn't the real Christmas already being forgotten? I think I'd rather see Christmas only celebrated by the faithful. Otherwise you get what we have now, which is a holiday that has been diluted to the point of irrelevance.

No because those that celebrate Christmas with Jesus in mind continue to do so and those that do not are still spreading love and happiness throughout the world. I don't see Jesus as the kind of guy that would be upset by that.

[diggitydot]

Why is it someone else's business how or why another family chooses to celebrate ANYTHING?

[corn poffi]

Well if it should only be celebrated by the faithful, get retailers to stop shoving it down everybody's throat. Christmas is unavoidable, so let us join in on the fun.

Can we do anything right? People get mad at us for celebrating "their" holiday, but they also get mad when they are wished a "happy holidays" at the grocery store.

Based on your "rules" those who aren't catholic shouldn't celebrate st Patrick's day or valentines day. Not a veteran? No veterans day for you! I'll spare you and stop there.

[GrayMatterWife]

HollyDay: ours is a proselytizing faith. We believe that the Lord (Yahweh of the Old Testament) is the one and only God, and He is the God of everyone. We as Christians have no monopoly on Him and it is part of or call as Christians as set forth in the Great Commission to share with others the Gospel, which at its most basic is the Good News that God loves you and his Incarnated Son died a sacrifical death for every person. Christmas is our liturgical calendar recognition of His Nativity. Generally, we as Christians don't have a problem with non-faithful co-opting "our" holiday as a more generic holiday for celebrating love and peace because--even if the celebrants does not personally believe in God or the Nativity--the celebrant's sharing of love with his fellow man happens because God's grace allows each of us--even the non-faithful--to act as Christ to one another in love. Even if the person so acting would never attribute his actions to God's grace. God is love and any expression of love is a face of God. While as Christians we would love for others to join us in the Eucharist, the ultimate expression of God's love for us--that is not where everyone is. So we are happy that people can share in expressing love for his fellow man on our second-highest holy day. We would never discourage joining in that, even though it is not an expression by the celebrant of an orthodox belief in the Trinity specifically.

It does not denigrate "our" holiday when the non-faithful join us in celebrating in the way that they can. If Christ's Nativity gives the non-faithful an opportunity to show love to each other, YAY!

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

This entire thread has been really interesting for me to read for two reasons:

1) Last year I spent the majority of December in Kenya - when asked about gifts, decorating, etc. Kenyans are really confused. They view it as a family day celebrating Jesus' birth. There are few gifts exchanged and it really is seen as a day of celebration together. As a Christian, I felt really convicted by that attitude. Like, oh THESE people get it. It was very interesting. Of course affluent Kenyans are moving toward the American model but it was really interesting to see the way another majority Christian culture does it. This is likely due to the fact that the majority of Kenyans have only been Christian for a few generations if that and there's also a very large minority Muslim population especially on the coast. The secular/commercial Christmas just doesn't exist the same way there.

2) I spent actual Christmas Day in Israel (my family is Christian but obviously Israel is a holy land for our faith as well so we've always want to visit). My family flew in (halfway between Kenya and home) and we toured around for a week. It was fascinating after growing up in America to be in a place where everything was closed because it was Shabbat, not because it was Christmas. We did go to church since there are obviously a lot of churches in the region though the Christian population is relatively small but it was really, really fascinating. The commercialism/Christmas spectacle was obviously not really in display at all there.

This all makes me wonder if we're not really debating American cultural representations of Christmas as much as we are a religious holiday tradition. Obviously other Christian cultures don't celebrate this way and obviously in places that are non-Christian majorities, you really do have more focus on the reason for the season.

Just food for thought...

[poky]

I understand your point, BUT, if everyone is celebrating Christmas, even people who are decidedly NOT Christian, isn't the real Christmas already being forgotten? I think I'd rather see Christmas only celebrated by the faithful. Otherwise you get what we have now, which is a holiday that has been diluted to the point of irrelevance.

OK, let's turn this into a REAL debate: Should non-religious people also not get married? Doesn't it dilute the institution of marriage when they do? If not, why not?

[Chrisada]

I think the "faithful" hollyday, did a pretty good job of diluting the holiday on their own.

OK, let's turn this into a REAL debate: Should non-religious people also not get married? Doesn't it dilute the institution of marriage when they do? If not, why not?

That is a false equivalency, though. Marriage isn't based in one religion like Christmas is based in Christianity.

HollyDay: ours is a proselytizing faith. We believe that the Lord (Yahweh of the Old Testament) is the one and only God, and He is the God of everyone. We as Christians have no monopoly on Him and it is part of or call as Christians as set forth in the Great Commission to share with others the Gospel, which at its most basic is the Good News that God loves you and his Incarnated Son died a sacrifical death for every person. Christmas is our liturgical calendar recognition of His Nativity. Generally, we as Christians don't have a problem with non-faithful co-opting "our" holiday as a more generic holiday for celebrating love and peace because--even if the celebrants does not personally believe in God or the Nativity--the celebrant's sharing of love with his fellow man happens because God's grace allows each of us--even the non-faithful--to act as Christ to one another in love. Even if the person so acting would never attribute his actions to God's grace. God is love and any expression of love is a face of God. While as Christians we would love for others to join us in the Eucharist, the ultimate expression of God's love for us--that is not where everyone is. So we are happy that people can share in expressing love for his fellow man on our second-highest holy day. We would never discourage joining in that, even though it is not an expression by the celebrant of an orthodox belief in the Trinity specifically.

It does not denigrate "our" holiday when the non-faithful join us in celebrating in the way that they can. If Christ's Nativity gives the non-faithful an opportunity to show love to each other, YAY!

A very valid point!

[medpedspouse]

Scared to make a comment because I get the feeling that hollyday's question should not have been posed. DISCLAMER - I in no way believe you should believe as I do. However, I have to admit that I am curious as to why non believers celebrate christian holidays. Before you hate me for even questioning this, please let me explain. When I took religions of the world in college I fell in love with several holidays/traditions/beliefs,etc. I've often thought about incorporating these into my life...heck, it would almost make the whole year a holiday . However, a friend pointed out that it would be offensive for me to do so - not exactly her words but she basically pointed out that I'd be half-ass-ing other people's high holy days. So, when the question about Christmas came up I have to admit I was excited to hear your different points of view. Unfortunately, I think some have an angry tone but I may be totally wrong...I hope I am for I would really like to hear your thoughts. By the way please know that in no way do I have any hidden agenda nor do I intend to pass judgement or offend anyone. I am truly curious.