religious employers must cover birth control

[diggitydot]

Heidi, trust me, this is NOT about money, to assume show shows your complete lack of understanding of the Catholic Church and her deeply held beliefs.

The dogma is not about money, I agree.

However, do you really think that a religion with as many money-making businesses as the Catholic church will forgo all tht money that funds other important works? They may threaten to do so, but it will decimate the church to shutter those ventures.

Which is why churches should be churches and businesses should be businesses.

[Pollyanna]

You're right DD, they likely won't close but instead choose not to offer healthcare as a benefit of employment.

[diggitydot]

No one is forcing their religion on anyone. People just have to pay for their own contraceptives. I really don't get why people feel so entitled to have their employers pay for everything.

Refusing to follow federally-mandated regulations due to dogma is forcing your personal beliefs onto others. Period. I don't expect religious people to do anything against their personal beliefs. I do, however, expect businesses to follow federal law.

This isn't a "pay for my shit, now!" issue; it's a matter of following the law. If a religious organizations want to have exemptions based on their beliefs, then don't go out and become businesses.

[v-girl]

The dogma is not about money, I agree.

However, do you really think that a religion with as many money-making businesses as the Catholic church will forgo all tht money that funds other important works? They may threaten to do so, but it will decimate the church to shutter those ventures.

Which is why churches should be churches and businesses should be businesses.

Yes, I do think they will close them before they decide to just go with the flow.

The "businesses" were started as charitable organizations, not as money-making businesses. They were started because there was a need that they were able to fill. A hospital that will take poor patients, a university for Catholic students, etc. I haven't looked up to make sure, but I'm guessing it's quite likely they are non-profits.

[diggitydot]

You're right DD, they likely won't close but instead choose not to offer healthcare as a benefit of employment.

If they're really serious about absolutely NOT negotiating on this, that is totally fine. I actually respect that amount of firm conviction a great deal. But they're going to have to drastically change their overarching model/structure to become compliant with the laws.

It's also within their right to simply pay the fines for each employee, every year. I doubt that will happen, though. They employ a LOT of people and that's a shit ton of dough.

If I were a betting person, my money is on some sort of compromise being worked out in the next year. Yes, there are going to be some pissed peeps on both sides, but I think there will be some sort of deal struck to avoid shuttering facilities while still insuring employees.

[SuzySunshine]

I think what you will find is that a lot of them are structured much like Mayo Clinic. The Clinic is a non-profit, the catholic hospital, and the other hospital are also non-profits. The docs, residents, etc. are actually payed by a separate legal entity even though it is related to the catholic hospital, the hospital is not technically the employer.

I just re-read DH's contract for his new job and it looks like his new job is structured much the same way. The hospital is catholic but he is not technically employed by the hospital, he is employed by another separate legal entity. I suspect this is how some of them will get around it when push comes to shove. If the hospital isn't legally the employer then they will be able to employ their employees, buy health insurance and still keep their hospitals as charitable and non-profit forms of income.

[diggitydot]

The "businesses" were started as charitable organizations, not as money-making businesses. They were started because there was a need that they were able to fill. A hospital that will take poor patients, a university for Catholic students, etc. I haven't looked up to make sure, but I'm guessing it's quite likely they are non-profits.

Oh, I'm positive that all of the money-making ventures began as charities are are still likely classified as not-for-profit entities. That doesn't mean that money isn't being made, just that the proceeds are put back into the company or being "donated" to other Catholic endeavors. And that's totally fine. But they're still a business with a TON of employees and are subject to federal laws. They are a not-for-profit business, but a business nonetheless

[Vanquisher]

I think we will have to agree to disagree on whether or not they will close down business rather than pay for birth control. I can see "selling" the businesses or turning the running of it over to a holding company or something like that, but I just can't swallow that they would shut down all their businesses over this. Further, they can't choose not to offer health insurance, again, if they have more than 50 employees. I am not saying, at all, that this isn't a deeply held belief of the Catholic Church. I am saying that as a business they should have to abide by federal law. I think their stance is a violation of the freedoms of religion of individuals who do not believe exactly the same way.

[v-girl]

I'd rather see them close than to compromise on our beliefs. Yes, I'm that firm in my beliefs.

[SuzySunshine]

It's also within their right to simply pay the fines for each employee, every year. I doubt that will happen, though. They employ a LOT of people and that's a shit ton of dough.

But at the same time $2K/person is probably only twice what they already pay to provide the health insurance so they may just choose to pay it...But I would think for a lot of medical professionals not having the option of health insurance in your benefits would be a turn off when deciding (not residents) between jobs.

[diggitydot]

I'd rather see them close than to compromise on our beliefs. Yes, I'm that firm in my beliefs.

I absolutely respect that.

[diggitydot]

But at the same time $2K/person is probably only twice what they already pay to provide the health insurance so they may just choose to pay it...But I would think for a lot of medical professionals not having the option of health insurance in your benefits would be a turn off when deciding (not residents) between jobs.

It would make recruiting impossible for their hospitals. However, I think essentially doubling the costs of their benefits would be a no-go. They're also likely going to have a boatload of litigation to wade through, too. Combined, I think it's a financial killer.

[scrub-jay]

It's also within their right to simply pay the fines for each employee, every year. I doubt that will happen, though. They employ a LOT of people and that's a shit ton of dough.

It's about 2k/employee, which considering the cost of medical care per individual could be considered a bargain, and many analysts expect many employers (religious and secular) to choose this option over providing healthcare. It will be very interesting in 2014.

ETA: Cross posted with everyone else.

[Vanquisher]

$2K/employee is a BARGAIN and a half. Huge bargain. Huge. We pay over that amount each and every month for 3 employees and 2 dependants (my kids) group health insurance.

[SoonerTexan]

Refusing to follow federally-mandated regulations

I don't necessarily think the Church should refuse to follow federally-mandated regulations. I thought the debate was whether or not these regulations SHOULD be federally mandated.