Teaching Your Child to Argue

[Pollyanna]

My concern was also mocking small children, Spotty Dog. I can see it becoming too easy for me to do, and possibly hurting my kid.

Those of you who employ these tactics: how do you go about instilling good habits and avoid hurting the child's feelings? That's what I am most curious about.


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I don't like the mocking either. I find that and sarcasm disrespectful to your child. While dh and I are very sarcastic we don't aim that sarcasm at our children.

[SoonerTexan]

I see some good things here and I'm trying to improve my own argumentative skills.

On the other hand, people who argue everything, just for the sake of arguing, piss me off and wear on my patience. There is something to be said for sometimes just letting things go and knowing when it is and isn't okay to argue.

I also see some potential conflicts with authority and friends--a child who has been taught anything is up for argument at home might be in for a rough surprise in school and have a hard time dealing this way with friends.

Finally, I think it is pretty personality dependent. Some people love to argue and enjoy it. On the other had, it sucks the souls out of others. I'm somewhere in between.

So yeah, interesting

[GrayMatterWife]

My concern was also mocking small children, Spotty Dog. I can see it becoming too easy for me to do, and possibly hurting my kid.

Those of you who employ these tactics: how do you go about instilling good habits and avoid hurting the child's feelings? That's what I am most curious about.

If you are mocking (through ad hominem attacks, sarcasm, etc.), you are not teaching rhetoric and argument appropriately--or setting a good example. A good starting place is to assume that your child has a worthy point to make (even if it is not a winning one), but lacks the skills of logic to lay it out in a persuasive way. Assuming that the child is too young, inexperience, or unworldly to hold a worthy point is when things can become mocking. Assist them in their argument construction. You can be frank with them ("I'm rejecting that argument," "that's not persuasive," "pitch again--that dog don't hunt," etc.) without belittling. For my son, he seems to appreciate knowing when he's got a loser--he'll start reframing right away...

For example [this is practically verbatim of an argument we had several weeks ago.]

DS (8yrs): [At Target] Mom, can we buy Fruit-Tuti-Os?

Me: No.

DS: BUT MOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!

Me: Whining is not an argument. If you would like me to reconsider, how can you present a good argument?

DS: [From MUCH experience, he says the magic words...] Mom, would you reconsider?

Me: Yes. What argument do you have in favor of your position?

DS: I need breakfast cereal and we are out. And the box is right there on the shelf!

Me: That is true, but that is not a good reason for me to buy Fruit-Tuti-Os. They are expensive and full of sugar. We can get something healthier and cheaper. Do you have a better argument, that overcomes my concerns about cost and nutrition?

DS: No.

Me: Well, then I won't change my answer.

DS: Wait! What about this? I think we should buy Fruit-Tuti-Os as a reward! I got an A on my spelling and math tests this week. Maybe you could buy it as a treat for that?

Me: That's a much better argument. However, Fruit-Tuti-Os are a BIG treat. I'll cut you a deal--get another two As next week, and we'll buy the cereal then. That's my final offer, take it or leave it. Good enough?

DS: Good enough.

*One thing that we've had to work hard on is understanding the art of persuasion. The fact that YOU really want something is rarely persuasive that ANOTHER person should want to give it to you. If you want to convince someone to adopt you position, you need to convince them that it something that THEY want. And, given that you are a kids, you usually have to do this with little to bargain with...so you really have to know how to re-frame a position, rather than to try and "buy" your solution.

**For whatever it's worth, this takes PRACTICE and TIME and PATIENCE. Kids resist it at first, because the logic process lacks what they want (instant gratification) and requires something they don't want to do (work). And, you can't (or at least I can't) do it half-heartedly. When DS and I had the above-discussion, I pulled the shopping cart to the side of the aisle, stopped what I was doing, and engaged him in eye contact. Again, I think this goes to the need to assume that the child has a worthy point.

***And: this is really tricky: you have to have a "kill phrase" that you can employ when you are genuinely not going to reconsider or entertain further argument. I tell my son, "This is a rule. It is not open to negotiation," and "I understand that you don't agree with my conclusion, but this is not an issue that is open to argument or reconsideration. This is a mom executive decision." Otherwise, absolutely EVERYTHING will be an argument.

****One last thing: knowing how and when to CONCEDE is a huge part of mastering argument. It can actually be very empowering if you can avoid it being fatal. It allows you to move past the opponent's point and onto to something you can present as a strength. That is, admit that they other person has a point, then turn the table, "That's true. But even so, you should consider..." or whatever.

[niener]

I feel like I'd need to go to law school before I could have that conversation in the middle of the grocery store, LOL.

Has anyone read his book, Thank You for Arguing? I've put it on my list. I'm terrible at arguing. DH, on the other hand, loves to turn everything into an argument -- except with me because he's learned better .

[SoonerTexan]

See, the way you describe it GMW, it sounds great. But I feel like I would total fail at execution. DH might do better, though.

[HouseofWool]

It's funny, GMW, the way you present it is pretty much what I do with my kids anyway. Whining does NOT get them what they want, but if they can convince me, then it can work. And they know this too.

I suck at arguing, but my kids are pretty good at it.

And to be really honest, I've been know to say to my kids, from infancy on up, that their attempts at persuasion (ie whining) just weren't pathetic enough. I had no idea it was a rhetorical term.

[Michele]

Thank you GMW!!! Your post makes sense and I'm going to save it. I suck at arguing because I get stuck in the emotion. It's why I end up in whining battles with my kids sometimes. But your post is clear and easy to follow. Thank you!

[Thirteen]

Yes, thank you GMW!
I would need classes to be successful at this, I think.


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[scrub-jay]

I love your description GMW! I was thinking about this last night with regards to my 2.5 year old. We are far more basic, but she is learning that she will get far more from us arguing logic than engaging in a tantrum or whining. An example of a simple argument that occurred a few nights ago:

dd: Mommy, I want to play with scissors, please??
me (cooking dinner & multitasking): I understand dear, but right now Mommy does not want to play with scissors.
dd: I know, but I want to play with scissors.

As a compromise, I let her play with scissors in the kitchen with me where I could keep an eye on her. Her point was simply that she was not asking me to play with scissors, but was asking permission to play with them on her own. She did not jump into a tantrum or whine about my initial refusal as she could have and my counterargument was weak and failed to employ logic against her request. I lost because I wasn't paying attention and she beat me on semantics.

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

I also see some potential conflicts with authority and friends--a child who has been taught anything is up for argument at home might be in for a rough surprise in school and have a hard time dealing this way with friends.

This is a real and valid concern.

Everything growing up in my house was based on persuasive argument and it was a challenge to win the argument and persuade people to your side - there was no mercy shown, even if you were very little. As an aside, my dad once said to me "stop being so obtuse!" when I was 8 and I said, "an angle larger than 90?" and he said "purposely difficult, it has multiple meanings, now stop it"...so you can see how this went in my house (not that name calling has to be a part of teaching your child argument, just that there was NO mercy shown).

When I went to college, I found people like me that liked to think of all the angles and play devils advocate. When I first started working at my new job, however, my first year review basically said, "stop challenging everything, you're annoying". I was really devastated because I was not intending to come across that way. In a work setting, however, I was coming across as difficult and inflexible because I wanted to discuss all the options and sometimes my boss just wanted me to shut the hell up and do what I was told. While of course there are times to challenge, there are also times to not argue that are probably just as important to learn (situations that come to mind are dangerous, emergent situations, in a new work setting, and with people who don't know you well).

I'm pretty sensitive though I don't come across that way so being told I was annoying people that I deeply respected really, really hurt me. I think I cried in the bathroom for almost 10 minutes. After pulling myself together, I went and asked my boss more some specific situations and tried to learn from it. As he's gotten to know me, he realized that this is how I was raised and that it's my personality's way of actually striving to do a GOOD job (i.e. that it can be a strength and not just a weakness) and I've also learned how to temper this quality.

It's probably my personality but unless properly coached, teaching your kid to argue can be really abrasive. I know I even annoy my DH sometimes because I'll argue the devil's advocate position because it's fun/intellectually stimulating to me even if it's what I don't believe. He's like SHUT UP, YOU DON'T EVEN THINK THAT, WHY ARE YOU ARGUING???

I think age also matters. In my experience, a child or junior employee arguing is less tolerated than a respected peer or an adult. You need to have the social savvy to know when it's appropriate and when it's annoying and I clearly lacked that initially.

[Pollyanna]

T & S brings up really good points. Just like everything in parenting, nothing is one size fits all. I wasn't taught to argue so much as I was taught to analyze. Mom would say, "I don't like to say no to my children so before you ask me a question analyze the situation based on the values you've been taught and you'll have your answer". This developed a lot of trust because our parents showed they trusted us to make good choices and we followed by respecting our parents and what we had been taught and implemented those values. This is more of the approach dh and I take.

[MsSassyBaskets]

I just wanted to jump in and say how impressed I am with all you parents who are trying this sort of approach -- or any approach that respectfully considers your kid's opinion. I grew up in a house where it was made very clear that what I wanted didn't matter. I think the extreme authoritarianism has led to me being uncomfortable dealing with conflict, and it led to me being dangerously rebellious when I was in high school and college, because there was no middle ground. Kudos to all of you -- I hope that I can do as much when I'm a parent.

[GreyhoundsRUs]

I just wanted to jump in and say how impressed I am with all you parents who are trying this sort of approach -- or any approach that respectfully considers your kid's opinion. I grew up in a house where it was made very clear that what I wanted didn't matter. I think the extreme authoritarianism has led to me being uncomfortable dealing with conflict, and it led to me being dangerously rebellious when I was in high school and college, because there was no middle ground. Kudos to all of you -- I hope that I can do as much when I'm a parent.

Ditto - except for the rebellious part - I went to the opposite extreme! DH and I are trying to pull the best of our upbringings into raising a loving, independent, confident child!

[Bittersweet]

Ditto - except for the rebellious part - I went to the opposite extreme! DH and I are trying to pull the best of our upbringings into raising a loving, independent, confident child!

Tritto I've enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts. I still have more thinking to do, but I'm guessing DH will do our best to try to find a middle ground between our upbrings. I had "because I said so" parents and DH had parents who turned even the most mundane into the Spanish Inquisition. We both suck at making decisions and don't trust our own judgment for exactly opposite reasons.

[diggitydot]

We tend to discuss shit at length, but at some point, "Because I said so," is entirely appropriate with DD2. She entrenches herself and argues the point long after she realizes she's wrong and is venturing into "digging myself into deep shit" territory. She doesn't know how to prioritize or pick her battles, which we're working on with her.

Part of it, for DD2, is that she is becoming accustomed to being the smartest kid in a room again. Particularly, now that she's back in a traditional middle school setting. She doesn't argue nearly as much when she's surrounded by other quick-minded kiddos. Probably because she can't get away with it.