Religion in public schools

[spotty_dog]

I was thinking about that too. I think in general you don't want to answer the question unless you want to engage in the follow-up conversation and all the "why"s. So in fifth grade and up, maybe it would be appropriate to discuss the teacher's and students' faith, involve the class in talking about what their families believe, etc. But in kindergarten? I think I'd default to "I don't think we need to talk about me right now," or "It sounds like that's an important part of your family life!" and redirect.

[diggitydot]

I've been in that situation when I volunteered in the little dude's classroom. My pat response was along the lines of, "Well that's kind of a personal question and school maybe isn't the best place to ask. People can sometimes feel funny discussing personal subjects in a public place. Maybe ask your parents what they think about XYZ when you get home."

[Michele]

Sorry for all of the grammar errors in my last post. It was a quickly typed iPhone post.

I think avoidance and redirect back to the parents is the appropriate response. "Ooh that's a great question! I think you should ask your parents about that when you get home." Or what DiggityDot said.

[Chrisada]

Exactly. You tell the child to talk to their parents about it. Religion should be personal IMO and certainly should not be discussed with elementary aged children who are extremely impressionable and tend to idolize their teachers. This is coming from a former elementary teacher. I would never discuss god with a student period. Just like when a student asked me how the baby got inside me. "Oh, I think you need to talk to mommy about that when you get home!"

[GreyhoundsRUs]

Sorry for all of the grammar errors in my last post. It was a quickly typed iPhone post.

I think avoidance and redirect back to the parents is the appropriate response. "Ooh that's a great question! I think you should ask your parents about that when you get home." Or what DiggityDot said.

I agree. When kids asked me about religion or God (and they were in 7th grade), I would reply with something similar or something about it being not appropriate/necessary to discuss. Kids really idolize their teachers, and if Miss Sue says that she believes in Jesus, then it must be the "right" thing to do because she's the teacher. Especially when kids are young and impressionable, I don't think it should even be discussed

[L.Jane]

I don't agree with having religious icons named in songs in schools, but since they do a Hanukkah song, Kwanza song, and try to cover their basis, whichever song they pick is technically OK. Not that it makes it right. They should really just be doing winter songs. One of the way my parents taught me to look at the songs when we were taught them every year in choir was that they are beautiful songs, created by talented artists, but we don't believe in them. Its the same way we look at the other religions, with respect, but knowing its not what we believe. I know as a kid I struggled with it and every time the song had something I didn't believe in, in my mind I would think, "I don't believe, I don't believe" Now as an adult I enjoy those songs and my sister was in the high school Choir that sang the full Handle's Messiah every year in a beautiful church. Its amazingly beautiful even though I don't agree with the meaning.

[Liisi]

I think that Christian holiday songs should only be sung in public schools if they are included with holiday songs from other religions as well. That said, I'm not Christian and was not raised Christian, but I went to a Christian preschool and loved it, and sang Silent Night and many other Christian songs at the (secular) private school I went to all through elementary school! I remember we played a dreidl game, too, and did a Santa Lucia thing where I wore a crown of candles.

On the other hand, maybe it's easier to just stick with winter-themed songs like "Let it Snow."

I agree that it's not appropriate for teachers to talk about their personal religious beliefs with students. I like the suggestions of responses like "That's a great thing to talk with your family about." I think it's fine for kids to talk about their spiritual/religious beliefs with each other, as long as the conversations are entirely student-initiated.

[GrayMatterWife]

I think that Christian holiday songs should only be sung in public schools if they are included with holiday songs from other religions as well. That said, I'm not Christian and was not raised Christian, but I went to a Christian preschool and loved it, and sang Silent Night and many other Christian songs at the (secular) private school I went to all through elementary school! I remember we played a dreidl game, too, and did a Santa Lucia thing where I wore a crown of candles.

On the other hand, maybe it's easier to just stick with winter-themed songs like "Let it Snow."

I agree that it's not appropriate for teachers to talk about their personal religious beliefs with students. I like the suggestions of responses like "That's a great thing to talk with your family about." I think it's fine for kids to talk about their spiritual/religious beliefs with each other, as long as the conversations are entirely student-initiated.

I agree. Teachers should not be evangelizing. Back when I as teaching, I knew several teachers who were evangelical Christians, and said that it was a religious obligation to share their faith. My response was, "Fine. Then you should be teaching in a religious school. You may not have a choice by the tenants of your faith as to whether to vocally evangelize, but you definitely have a choice as to where to work. If your choice of work impedes your religious obligation, make a difference choice of work." They are in a position of authority over the children. Their religious views are not understood by the children as being on an equal playing field with the religious beliefs offered by the children--they are construed as having more authority, or--at a minimum--are not points that can be argued by the kids. It's their teacher, after all.

We are Christians and my son often shares his faith experience and knowledge with his buddies, at school and other places. Sometimes, it makes adults uncomfortable--I have had teachers say to me: "Yes, Sam drew a whole crucifixion scene in free draw today--and then he told the whole story to the kids around him"...laughing nervously (it is always OK with other adults that we are religious--it does frustrate some adults that we have been thoughtful enough to teach our kids that our faith belongs only in home and church and never, ever make it a part of your public life, because politely pretending that we don't have differences provides the superficial social framework that allows us all to live together without having to deal with differences...). Kids are funny--in general, they just listen to each other and accept that other people may believe things different than you. They don't get freaked out about it as easily as adults do. I think that by teaching DS that he can share his share experience with others, he has also learned that he must be understanding of the fact that not everyone believes what he believes and you have to respect other people even if you don't happen to share the same beliefs. A couple of months ago, my husband told me that he was really proud of DS--apparently, DS and some of the neighborhood boys were playing, and DH overheard a discussion. One of the boys was saying something about "Dirty Catholics! My grandpa says that Catholics are dirty!" Apparently, DS told the other kid that he did not want to hear anyone say anything bad about someone else's religion in his house; that is really disrepectful. The little boy persisted and DS told the little boy to go home, and that was the end of the afternoon of play. A tough thing to do--to tick off all the boys in the playgroup for the principle of the thing.

[Momo]

Kids are funny--in general, they just listen to each other and accept that other people may believe things different than you. They don't get freaked out about it as easily as adults do

you are fortunate if that is your experience.

My children have heard AWFUL things from (sadly) children of Christian faith. As a matter of fact I need to contact DD2' teacher. There are some nasty little girls that just won't let it go that Tess doesn't do Christmas! They say things like:"Well only bad people don't celebrate Jesus' birthday" & " Well you are stupid if you don't write a letter to Santa." Oh yeah, then there's the one who said: " Your parents are mean to not let you have fun like normal kids!" Last year Sophia was told she was "going to hell" for not being a Christian. Adam's Kindergarten year was so bad that the aid, who happened to be from Canada, encouraged his teacher to have me come in and give a talk. I luckily had a little story book written by Karen Katz on Ramadan http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=9EO6ibM1MnEC & one she wrote about children from around the world http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=k3DFwSzUZ94C . I just read those & answered general questions, with age appropriate terms, so it would be far from anything that could be controversial, if repeated at home.

It seems like you are all in agreement that "hey if they sing the dreidle song too, then it's mulch-cultural enough!!??" I say just leave it at winter wonderland celebrations & NON RELGIOUS SONGS and let the home&/or houses of worship be where songs w/religious connotations are sung!! seems
pretty simple to me.

BTW GMW is it unconstitutional for a teacher or school, to possibly have a minor sing a song that is considered blasphemous, to said child's religion?? Just curious about that?

[GreyhoundsRUs]

I agree, Momo - no religious songs period. Besides the fact that there are other religions besides Christianity and Judaism, being an atheist is also perfectly valid and should be respected as a system of belief. I also don't think public schools should have "Christmas" anything - call them "winter" if you're going to do something, but everyone's major holidays don't fall on Dec 25!

I agree with GMW (I think) that if you feel the need to evangelize to impressionable youth, you should be teaching in a religious setting. That is a good majority of the reason why I chose to teach at Catholic schools, even if it meant about 50% of the pay.

[moonlight]

I had no idea about all those problems. That's really sad. One of our Muslim buddies in med school went to Catholic school all the way through. He often played hymnal music during study time. He said it reminded him of school and it was calming. I guess everyone is different when it comes to this kind of stuff.

[Liisi]

It seems like you are all in agreement that hey if they sing the dreidle song too, then it's mulch-cultural enough!!?? I say just leave it at winter wonderland celebrations & NON RELGIOUS SONGS and let the home&/or houses of worship be where songs w/religious connotations are sung!! seems
pretty simple to me.

You know what, you're right. I take back my previous post, because I agree with you. A truly inclusive, multicultural winter holiday celebration is beyond what most teachers and schools are capable of. It would very rarely work, because someone's faith/beliefs/culture is bound to be left out... or teachers would subconsciously emphasize some holidays/religions more than others... and it would be a mess. And if a child's religion teaches that it's wrong to participate in an activity of another religion - and the line between "learning about another religion" and "participating in the activity of another religion" could be blurred SO easily - then it's best to just steer clear of the whole thing and have a secular winter wonderland celebration!!

Thanks for your post, Momo. I'm so sorry to hear of the bullying and discrimination that your children have experienced.

[Momo]

I had no idea about all those problems. That's really sad. One of our Muslim buddies in med school went to Catholic school all the way through. He often played hymnal music during study time. He said it reminded him of school and it was calming. I guess everyone is different when it comes to this kind of stuff.

Some Muslims send there kids to other religious schools in hopes of getting a better education. Some indigenous Muslims identify culturally as a Muslim, more so than religiously.
I had a dear friend in college, that identified as Muslim(from Lybia) & would eat pork... that is a HUGE NO -NO for a practicing Muslim....same goes for drinking alcohol, gambling & premarital sex. So bottom line is that just because you know someone that says they are Muslim, doesn't mean what they do is acceptable w/in their faith(Islam).

[Ladybug]

I think if you're trying to create a culture of appreciation you should expose (via music/art/social/historical studies) public students on all cultural/religious traditions. The artistic, sideways educational approach to religious celebrations is less of a "theological debate" and more of oppurtunity appreciate the artistic beauty that cultural search has birthed. If we are taught to perceive the artistic beauty and truth (love) of that celebration then we can more easily perceive it in our classmates and fellow man. Simply not talking about religon in any context (art, history, politics) makes it appear unapproachable, insurmountable. As previously stated, there is a distinct difference betwwen evangelizing and teaching, and it sounds like there is an unbalanced approach at your school. I think it could be delicately approached. I would ask the teacher if she has ever considered adding to her holiday program...

[SoonerTexan]

Beautifully said Ladybug.