Feminism vs. Gender Politics

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

This is a fascinating read:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/op...RecEngine&_r=0

It really does bring up some very interesting issues. I think that's what has been hard/weird about this whole Caitlyn Jenner thing. Dressing like a (sexy) woman doesn't make you a women. And I have been pretty annoyed by the media coverage of women (born male) who are in substantial leadership positions at women's colleges. (I went to an all women's school for 10 years through high school.) I understand you feel like a girl but you haven't been treated by a girl by society since birth and THAT is formative in the same way that your brain chemistry is formative on your gender. Gender is a VERY societal notion as evidenced by the fact that it means something different everywhere to "act like a girl" so to say that someone who's been treated as a male since birth can actually understand what it's like to be treated as a female since birth is silly.

I can certainly understand that if you were born male and you don't feel male, you shouldn't be forced to "be male" (whatever that means to you) but it also doesn't mean you've been treated by society as a female. Jenner, when she was Bruce, enjoyed a lot of privileges of being male. And while I understand she also had private anguish, she didn't have to be a girl growing up with all the baggage that entails.

It certainly argues for understanding gender as more than binary because I would push back on the notion that we can just say, "well now Caitlyn Jenner is a woman". No, she's not a man but I don't know that she's a woman.

This is all meant to be intellectually curious and not disrespectful BTW. Let's keep it clean...

[poky]

I read this the other day when a friend posted it and tagged a (trans) friend, asking for her take.

She said this was pretty typical stuff from hard-core "feminists", that TERFs like to twist the definition of "woman" to exclude transwomen, and that the "female trappings" are important, but not an important as self-congruence, when hormones are in line with the soul.

My response:

The 'female trappings', as far as I can tell, are only important insofar as they allow people (including the person themselves) to react/respond to the person as a female. I get that a lot of transwomen go pretty "girly", and it seem to me that's partially so be sure of 'reading' as female to the causal observer, and partially just exuberance about being "allowed" to, finally, after years of wanting to. I also get how that's a little disturbing to feminists who don't want those trappings to be the definition of "female".
The outrage about using the word "vagina" in the name of an abortion fundraiser is, to me, a little misguided - as the article points out, it's about ABORTIONS. Having a vagina is pretty much a prerequisite to ever needing an abortion. If it had said anything about "women", it would have been worse, I would think, because there are transmen with intact female genitalia who could conceivably need an abortion someday...and they're not "women". I don't know the whole story, though, and I don't know what the outraged people were wanting them to change the name to. I *do* think that changing the name of "Fund Texas Women" to "Fund Texas Choice" makes sense.
On the other hand, I, as a cis female, have never suffered through a business meeting with men talking to my breasts, nor have I woken up after sex terrified I'd forgotten to take my birth control pill the day before, etc., etc. Doesn't make me any less female, it makes me part of the spectrum (albeit part that's been very lucky). I disagree with the assertion that "being a woman means having accrued certain experiences, endured certain indignities and relished certain courtesies in a culture that reacted to you as one." There isn't a set checklist of experiences that ALL females had growing up. I don't think you have to have grown up female to be female; if the culture reacts to you as female NOW...you're female (this also makes me wonder how the author deals with trans kids, too - there are transwomen who DID "grow up female", after all, right?). I figure those who choose to be female after growing up male have it AT LEAST as hard as I do/did, now, so why dump on them and try to tell them they're not "real" women? I would imagine a lot of them are more acutely aware of the differences in the ways men and women are treated than I am, having seen both sides first-hand.
I get the dismay in the article about the use of "my brain is female", though I'm not as worked up about it as the author and her friends seem to be. It's handwavey, and it could have discriminatory implications. I get that talking about "feelings" and "souls" doesn't seem legitimate or concrete enough, though. It would be good if there was better language to use around this.

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

Thanks for that poky. Agree that a certain set of experiences don't define you as a girl or a boy but I do think that being treated as a girl your whole life does shape you. There have been studies showing that even from infancy people treat the same infant differently if it's dressed as a girl vs. a boy. And people will say, "he's all boy" or "she's so girly" as young as 12 months old!!! Anyone who's watched young children know how early this stuff comes into play.

Also, I'm not going to use the word "front hole" for my own (or my children who were born female and don't identify as any gender strongly yet) genitalia as it's clearly a vagina. I do think it is dangerous when we get so enmeshed in trying to be inclusive with our exact words that we make conversation nearly impossible. We don't want to purposely exclude but saying you can't generalize that MOST women have a vagina is insane. Especially considering these discussions are completely confined to a really small set of Western countries. Women (born women, identify as women) in the developing world are still routinely and brutally harassed for being women...so, I feel like feminism still really does have a place.

[Sheherezade]

Feminism vs. Gender Politics

The whole "my brain is female" and defining your gender by hobbies and interests really bothers me. I don't see it as a feminist thing at all, just that I prefer gender to be defined by physical traits. Expectations of behavior, sexuality, hopes and dreams should really not arise based on your physical traits. If we didn't have cultural expectations assigned to female vs male physical bodies, would transgender even be an issue?

[poky]

Thanks for that poky. Agree that a certain set of experiences don't define you as a girl or a boy but I do think that being treated as a girl your whole life does shape you. There have been studies showing that even from infancy people treat the same infant differently if it's dressed as a girl vs. a boy. And people will say, "he's all boy" or "she's so girly" as young as 12 months old!!! Anyone who's watched young children know how early this stuff comes into play.

Yes, being treated one way or another your whole life DOES shape you, to an extent, but there is SO MUCH variability, and SO MUCH overlap between the genders that it's a meaningless dichotomy, which is why I said "I don't think you have to have grown up female to be female; if the culture reacts to you as female NOW...you're female." Saying that people who've FELT female all their lives (regardless of how they present/are treated) aren't "real" females because they didn't grow up female is why they came up with the acronym TERF. Why exclude them, make them feel "less than"? I was never told I was girly, and neither was my sister. I was never told I couldn't do something because I wasn't a boy. Am I "less female" because I don't share that experience?

Also, I'm not going to use the word "front hole" for my own (or my children who were born female and don't identify as any gender strongly yet) genitalia as it's clearly a vagina. I do think it is dangerous when we get so enmeshed in trying to be inclusive with our exact words that we make conversation nearly impossible. We don't want to purposely exclude but saying you can't generalize that MOST women have a vagina is insane. Especially considering these discussions are completely confined to a really small set of Western countries. Women (born women, identify as women) in the developing world are still routinely and brutally harassed for being women...so, I feel like feminism still really does have a place.

I don't think anybody is saying "never use the word vagina, even when talking about that part of a person's anatomy", but they are saying "keep in mind that there are women without vaginas, and men who have them"

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

The TERF thing seems inflammatory and designed to be offensive. I don't know why people who are asking for acceptance and not labels would label other people.

TERF. Why exclude them, make them feel "less than"?

I don't think it's about making them feel "less than", it's about creating other categories outside of the gender binary. It's saying that my experience as female born female is fundamentally different than her experience as female born male. No better or worse, no value judgment.