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#BlackLivesMatter

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  • #76
    I am so sorry for your loss. Truly.




    I grew up in the 80s where the movie "Colors" came out. I went with three (white) friends and we were probably four out of ten white people in the entire theater. I was 15 years old. It was an eye opener for me. I lived in what I thought was a diverse community but our largest non- white population was Asian. The issue of gangs has always fascinated me for a variety of reasons.

    I recently watched "Crips and Bloods: Made in America 2008." It was eye opening. It essentially explains how systematic racism works itself into the community and becomes the norm. Yes there is some blame but it also does a pretty good job being objective. There are studies quoted and professors who are experts in the subjects discussed. I found it well done (if a little long at times) and enlightening.

    The documentary explains how post Jim Crow blacks move to California and feel blessed that lynching and public beatings are no longer tolerated. There are jobs available and many families own their own houses.

    The children of these couples see it differently however when they aren't allowed in the boy scouts (and other community activities) and form groups (pre-gangs) to feel like they matter and can hang out together since white America won't let them do anything organized including sports. Moreover, unless their parents own a business they are excluded from getting most jobs. There becomes a generational gap within the black community in addition to the growing cultural gap (inequality) in the white community. The majority of black adults at this time have amazing work ethics and feel fortunate to be able to put food on the table. They are law abiding citizens -- but their kids have no outlets.

    The documentary talks about how much time is needed for a revolution and that forming gangs was really one of the only ways to "hurt the system" while being denied equal education, equal human rights and equal ability to move up in the world through jobs and finances. Ironically when the groups of young black men evolved into what we define now as "gangs" the increased violence brought the housing values down and businesses moved if they could. The neighborhoods started as middle class. They are now dangerous "ghettos" largely a result of institutionalized racism. The police force is discussed but only as one part of a very complicated problem.

    What caused violent gangs that terrorize certain neighborhoods across our country.....we did! Our systems helped create them much like we create programs to feed the elderly who can't leave their houses.

    We are sick as a nation when it comes to systematic racism. We are not born suspicious or hateful of other races. We are taught.
    When we as a country are afraid we oversimplify things as a defense mechanism. It's sad -- pathetic actually. It's an "us vs. them" mentality. It's ignorance that's tolerated and even celebrated.



    "No man can put a chain about the ankle of his fellow man without at last finding the other end fastened about his own neck." Frederick Douglass

    "America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln

    "AIDS isn't the heaviest burden I've had to bear...being black is the greatest burden I've had to bear. No question about it, race has always been my biggest burden, having to live as a minority in America." Arthur Ashe
    Flynn

    Wife to post training CT surgeon; mother of three kids ages 17, 15, and 11.

    “It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.” —Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets " Albus Dumbledore

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    • #77
      I don't have much to add except that attempting to explain this to the K Bros (ages 5 and 6) really distilled it to me. They saw it on the news and asked me what was happening. I tried to explain in the simplest terms and they asked: Aren't the police supposed to help everyone? Why are some people afraid of police? How come the police don't know who the bad guys are? Was the black man threatening? Would this happen to you? How do peaceful protests help? How does shooting cops help?

      When I was in law school, my criminal procedure professor was a black man. He didn't teach procedure very well but he clearly believed that the laws are applied differently for different people. Laws are in place to protect people of all races but criminal procedure doesn't work if it's not applied equally.

      Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
      Wife and #1 Fan of Attending Adult & Geriatric Psychiatrist.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by TulipsAndSunscreen View Post
        What was that?
        It looks like he stated that BLM is inherently racist. He also stated that the Dallas shooter was "sympathetic" to the BLM movement, though I've read the DPD chief stated the shooter said he was "upset with BLM." There are reports of him supporting black separatist groups, though I'm not sure if BLM would describe itself that way (quick google says no, but again, very quick google). He claims to have done more for blacks than BLM.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by LilySayWhat
          This is far too close for home to me to discuss without really letting loose. But what I will say is this: if you think there are a lot of thug cops now, give it two years. That is going to be all that's left. The good ones, the ones I know, are leaving the force. The risk is too high for shitty pay, threat of death, threats against their families, etc. It will get far, far worse before it gets better.
          Yep, this is what my family members say. My cousin loves being a cop, he is an amazing guy, you want him on the force, but I'm not sure how long he will stay. How does he leave his wife and six kids every morning knowing he may not come back and knowing that people are actually supporting riots and his death? And I'm not at all being dramatic when I say the folks better be ready to protect themselves because when you chase the good cops away you're it.
          Tara
          Married 20 years to MD/PhD in year 3 of MFM fellowship. SAHM to five wonderful children (#6 due in August), a sweet GSD named Bella, a black lab named Toby, and 1 guinea pig.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by rufflesanddots View Post
            It looks like he stated that BLM is inherently racist.
            This is what I was referring to. Sorry--I jumped into the discussion then vanished for a couple of days. Work went sideways and DH was in town--we tried to have a date night, etc.

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            • #81
              I think we need to do far more to support our police forces in light of these tragedies, but I think one form of that support should be racial equity training. Many of us, good cops included, fail to understand fully the perspectives of people of color in this country and how institutional and structural racism permeate even some of the most enlightened post-Civil Rights Era cultures. The conversations I have had this week with black colleagues and black members of my church have taught me that I have a lot of listening to do. As a Southerner I have always believed, "The past isn't dead and buried. It's not even past." Now more than ever this seems true, and I believe we need to understand the pain and scar tissue evident in BlackLivesMatter before any reconciliation is possible. I hope the good guys and gals on the police force, on the bench, and teaching in our schools will be part of that conversation without feeling threatened or accused. But just because it's uncomfortable doesn't mean it's not necessary.

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              • #82
                Responding to the devil's advocate question -- if docs (instead of cops) were the ones criticized:

                I personally feel that every piece of information I've ever received from DH's colleagues, the letters from his patients, and when he gets recognized on the street by a family member of a patient is -- glowing. I am confident that he is very good at what he does. With that being said, if DH wasn't good or couldn't handle the life style I would encourage him to get out of surgery. I would do this for everyone involved. Yes it would be incredibly difficult but I'd do it. If you screw up there are consequences -- AND THERE SHOULD BE. I rarely get defensive when articles in magazines go after docs that either stink or consciously participated in something illegal. When I do get defensive it's only when compensation comes up because I think my DH has earned every penny the hard way, and -- NO WE AREN'T RICH!!



                The #blacklivesmatter thread, in my opinion, went from discussion one specific problem in our country -- #1 an inordinate amount of African-American deaths at the hands of police officers -- to #2 "all lives matter" and #3 " A huge percentage of police officers are ethical, smart, and great at their job."

                Of course the last two statements are true but I personally feel the first statement is true as well. And this is where we get in our own way. All three statements are TRUE. We went from bringing up body cameras to encourage transparency...to "cops killed in action is JUST as big of a problem."

                I personally feel racism plays a huge roll here. Of course it does.
                Flynn

                Wife to post training CT surgeon; mother of three kids ages 17, 15, and 11.

                “It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.” —Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets " Albus Dumbledore

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                • #83
                  I feel like nobody got my Devils advocate question. The point isn't that if you aren't a good doc or cop that there shouldn't be consequences. My point was what if it didn't matter how good or caring of a doctor your spouse was and he or she was lumped in with the bad regardless of what he did or said or believed? What if there was the level of hatred toward doctors that there is towards cops? What if the response to the shooting of the surgeon at Harvard last year was, "what a tragedy, but I hope it doesn't take the spotlight off the real issue of patient care mistakes." Or the worse response, "it's sad, but now they know what we've been through so he had it coming." (It's out there and not hard to find).

                  I don't have a problem with the goal of reducing police violence and inherent racism towards blacks. I don't deny that there is a problem. I don't deny that racism is still a problem and despite everything, I probably am myself, though I certainly don't want to be and try not to be.

                  I do have a problem with the tactics and the tone. It probably really isn't even all this particular group, but they don't really have a strong leadership anyway, so it's hard to know what they are blessing and what they aren't because it's not really even clear who "they" is anymore. I hope there is change. I don't think this movement is going to convince the people that need to be convinced right now.


                  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                  Married to a newly minted Pediatric Rad, momma to a sweet girl and a bunch of (mostly) cute boy monsters.



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                  • #84
                    The issue with that is African Americans are experiencing frequent and systematic injustice. Unfortunately, cops are the first in line to perpetuate. That needs to change. Cops being gunned down? Separate issue. One I think many would suggest is the effect of the first issue. Whatever the case the two issues need to be separated, especially since they're related. The main point for me is when it comes to cops murdering civilians, the cop is in a position of power. They have the armor, back up, training, and legal system behind them. These killings are so horrific because even if the guy selling CDs outside the convenience store is a felon with a gun, his right as an American is that he should be innocent until proven guilty. Cops are denying them this right by killing them first.

                    Whenever I get into these discussions with my husband I end up telling him the same thing. When you have a minority group speaking out against injustice your job as a white man is to listen. By muddying the conversation with other issues, arguing that they bring it on themselves or aren't totally innocent, saying it's more complex, etc. that is further marginalizing a minority. As a white female I see it as my responsibility to defend anyone who is marginalized or incapable of helping themselves. Poor, old, minorities, gay, you name it. And then when I might be a victim of say, sexism, my hope is that someone else will defend me.

                    I think most people would listen if you started advocating for the issues and dangers of being a cop. There certainly needs to be more awareness, and perhaps they do need their own advocacy group. But in my mind it needs to be totally separate from the BLM movement.

                    Originally posted by SoonerTexan View Post
                    I feel like nobody got my Devils advocate question. The point isn't that if you aren't a good doc or cop that there shouldn't be consequences. My point was what if it didn't matter how good or caring of a doctor your spouse was and he or she was lumped in with the bad regardless of what he did or said or believed? What if there was the level of hatred toward doctors that there is towards cops? What if the response to the shooting of the surgeon at Harvard last year was, "what a tragedy, but I hope it doesn't take the spotlight off the real issue of patient care mistakes." Or the worse response, "it's sad, but now they know what we've been through so he had it coming." (It's out there and not hard to find).

                    I don't have a problem with the goal of reducing police violence and inherent racism towards blacks. I don't deny that there is a problem. I don't deny that racism is still a problem and despite everything, I probably am myself, though I certainly don't want to be and try not to be.

                    I do have a problem with the tactics and the tone. It probably really isn't even all this particular group, but they don't really have a strong leadership anyway, so it's hard to know what they are blessing and what they aren't because it's not really even clear who "they" is anymore. I hope there is change. I don't think this movement is going to convince the people that need to be convinced right now.


                    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                    • #85
                      I agree with the Police Chief's assessment that cops (and teachers) are asked to do WAY too much beyond the scope of their originally intended profession without the additional support and resources. I'm neutral on WHAT the function of these entities should be BUT we need to have a realistic dialogue about the scope and the purpose of them AND THEN FULLY SUPPORT THEM WITH ADEQUATE RESOURCES!!! I mean, seriously, who would want either job? The way the job is structured now it beats the altruism out of you.

                      By the way, I'm almost shocked that people can deny that there is institutionalized racism. It's a thousand paper cuts that makes individuals boil over. It doesn't make either party right, but denying it only adds that additional paper cut. As a woman, I definitely have been guilty of supporting the patriarchy and misogyny through calling other woman bitches, slut shaming, judging various choices, etcetera. I try really, really hard not to NOW, but hell yeah it happens. We are socially conditioned to support the roles that ultimately narrowly encage us. It's not my proudest moment, but it's the truth and we all do it. Of course other groups do it too. It doesn't ameliorate the pain that others cause because there is personal culpability as well.

                      We owe it to ourselves to get real and examine ourselves before we start taking camps. There are very few good guys and bad guys here. Just a lot of damn messy humanity and anger that is directed outwards.

                      "We have met the enemy and they are ours." Oliver Hazard Perry, War of 1812.
                      In my dreams I run with the Kenyans.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by houseelf View Post
                        By the way, I'm almost shocked that people can deny that there is institutionalized racism. It's a thousand paper cuts that makes individuals boil over. It doesn't make either party right, but denying it only adds that additional paper cut. As a woman, I definitely have been guilty of supporting the patriarchy and misogyny through calling other woman bitches, slut shaming, judging various choices, etcetera. I try really, really hard not to NOW, but hell yeah it happens. We are socially conditioned to support the roles that ultimately narrowly encage us. It's not my proudest moment, but it's the truth and we all do it. Of course other groups do it too. It doesn't ameliorate the pain that others cause because there is personal culpability as well.

                        We owe it to ourselves to get real and examine ourselves before we start taking camps. There are very few good guys and bad guys here. Just a lot of damn messy humanity and anger that is directed outwards.

                        "We have met the enemy and they are ours." Oliver Hazard Perry, War of 1812.
                        Yes yes yes.
                        Flynn

                        Wife to post training CT surgeon; mother of three kids ages 17, 15, and 11.

                        “It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.” —Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets " Albus Dumbledore

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          I'm pro- BLM, but I don't "get" why cops are murdered. Two wrongs do not in any way make a right.

                          Murdering black men is wrong. Murdering cops is wrong. They are both wrong.

                          We need to address racism. We need to address the us vs them mentality. We need to have dialogue, education, and recognize our own biases.

                          I've never had to explain to my 18-year-old son how to behave when he gets pulled over.

                          To deny that racism exists and is hugely institutionalized does both sides a disservice.

                          Where do you start? Education! Positive interactions between police and the black community working together in the community. It's going to take work, but it can help us heal to come together. I hope.
                          Heidi, PA-S1 - wife to an orthopaedic surgeon, mom to Ryan, 17, and Alexia, 11.


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                          • #88
                            Of course all lives should matter. The problem is that they don't. Because institutional racism.

                            Which is why there's even a BLM movement in the first place. Because after being told for enough years that you don't matter, at some point you turn around and go, "You know what? Fuck you. My life does matter."

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                            • #89
                              I think the next step, from various articles I've read, is to then have conversations with other white people about privilege, racial injustice, etc. I'm not sure you need to go around giving lectures, but perhaps the next time you have a friend or family member trying to justify or explain away the mistreatment of black Americans you could call them out. From a business perspective, the recommendation would be to recruit black employees.

                              Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

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                              • #90
                                I read both of those articles you mentioned in your previous post. That's just over the top. I mean seriously, if I can't think of one instance when I've been racist that means I'm in denial?

                                I read this article yesterday and had to consider why I still feel (and I say feel because I haven't participated in BLM beyond social media) like an advocate for BLM. The answer I came up with for myself is BLM is just the newest movement of a problem as old as this country. The killings gained traction because of social media, and they should have, because it points to the larger issue of racial injustice. If I were to critique BLM it'd be that it excludes Asian, Middle Eastern, Hispanic... I am terrified for our Muslim population but that's a whole separate issue.


                                http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/up...hootings.html?

                                action=click&pgtype=Homepage&region=CColumn&module =MostViewed&version=Full&src=mv&WT.nav=MostViewed& _r=0
                                Originally posted by LilySayWhat
                                I get that, but I'm not clear what I am supposed to do with this information that makes a tangible change. Other than apologize that I'm white. I am not being a dick, I seriously do not know what I am supposed to be doing other than "listening".

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