Charlottesville

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

I posted something.

I float between two very different worlds. I went to college in New England - all my college/work friends are almost 100% liberal. If not politically completely liberal than 100% socially liberal. For the most part, they cannot imagine living anywhere outside of New England, the mid-Atlantic, or the elite West Coast cities. I don't think a single one even attends a place of worship regularly.

On the other hand, I grew up and then lived in an extremely conservative environment. My church in NC and now are part of the Southern Baptist Convention. It is very, very conservative socially. I know many, many people who's family members are still openly racist.

So, I posted something very very specific. I want people to know that if they say they're a Christian, they should find a church that reflects God's repeated assertion that He will be worshipped by every "tribe, tongue, and nation" and that there is no division among peoples. They should find a diverse church working toward racial reconciliation.

Our church at home does this type of work. Many churches do not. So it was a challenge to some of my culturally Christian friends...wake up, do something. And to my left leaning friends, do not paint the church as part of the problem here because some racist assholes also claim membership.


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[MrsK]

I posted something.

I float between two very different worlds. I went to college in New England - all my college/work friends are almost 100% liberal. If not politically completely liberal than 100% socially liberal. For the most part, they cannot imagine living anywhere outside of New England, the mid-Atlantic, or the elite West Coast cities. I don't think a single one even attends a place of worship regularly.

On the other hand, I grew up and then lived in an extremely conservative environment. My church in NC and now are part of the Southern Baptist Convention. It is very, very conservative socially. I know many, many people who's family members are still openly racist.

So, I posted something very very specific. I want people to know that if they say they're a Christian, they should find a church that reflects God's repeated assertion that He will be worshipped by every "tribe, tongue, and nation" and that there is no division among peoples. They should find a diverse church working toward racial reconciliation.

Our church at home does this type of work. Many churches do not. So it was a challenge to some of my culturally Christian friends...wake up, do something. And to my left leaning friends, do not paint the church as part of the problem here because some racist assholes also claim membership.


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I saw your post. It was very good.

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[MrsK]

I think generally speaking, people know Nazis are evil. If one of my FB friends were to say otherwise, I wouldn't associate with them anymore. I doubt anyone who held an opinion that favored Nazis would be persuaded by a Facebook post to change their opinion.

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[medpedspouse]

I agree regarding using FB. I do not know any post that has ever changed anyone's mind. I think it sometimes can creates more divisiveness. Around election times, it is horrific. I stay away because I only end up frustrated and feel the wedge building between me an the other person triggering the frustration. I certainly do not engage by a post - I do not think these types of conversations can be had over a FB post....Sorry Mark & Sheryl. BUT, I am the person wishing we still adhered to the social rule of not discussing religion, money, politics or your relationship/sex among mixed company.

I think empathy is a good first step. I certainly do not condone the beliefs and behaviors of someone choosing to be racist...and given an opportunity will pose questions challenging that mental model. However, I feel for them -- I wonder if the fear and ignorance is so prevalent for someone *just like me* to think it is ok to believe and do these atrocious things...whether overtly or covertly.
I cannot choose to hate them - otherwise I feel I have fallen into their same pitiful state. For example, you must have a pretty shitty existence to not be able to step back, try to be objective and put yourself in someone else's place. So shitty to hurt someone over a piece of concrete/brass/metal (whatever statues are made of). I've had the privilege to have been exposed to the Johari window model and it is my hope that I will always work/live in an area where my mental model is challenged.

So, go at it - what am I not taking into consideration?

[ides]

I not big into posting on Facebook politically either. I am very saddened and distressed by the goings on.


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[rufflesanddots]

I think when someone regularly uses Facebook to share their political beliefs and constantly says that they love all people, and then is silent after this event, it is a problem. I do not know if it is approval, embarrassment, shame, guilt, fear, or confusion driving the silence, but it is noticeable and painful (to me, anyway). Why the hesitation now? Why not even a "praying for Charlottesville"? Why have my friends who will send me a "Happy New Year!" message on Rosh Hashanah and emphatically tell me they do not endorse the increased alt-right rhetoric that came with this election cycle/administration (that they voted for) chosen to remain silent? They have not even messaged me privately to denounce this hatred.

Can you see why I am confused? If someone rarely posts on Facebook or never posts politically, I don't really expect anything different. That fits with someone's usual behavior. The silence after this horrific event from those that DO regularly engage in political discourse is what is hurtful. Maybe the discussions are taking place privately in their own homes. I have no idea. I hope so.

I appreciate you all sharing in here, I do. I know it takes all kinds of people from all political and faith and culture backgrounds to resist this movement. I hope you can see where I am coming from when I speak of my experience.

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

I am the person wishing we still adhered to the social rule of not discussing religion, money, politics or your relationship/sex among mixed company.

So, go at it - what am I not taking into consideration?

So I used to (until very recently) feel this same way. I really, really did not want to discuss politics or religion at all.

But then I realized how many people that I know and associate with hold beliefs about people different from them simply because they haven't heard another side. I don't want anyone to think I'm "perfect" or "fighting a good fight" here...I'm FAR from perfect. But I've realized that from my position, there are people that I can get to listen to me that NEVER would engage in a discussion about race or gender with someone they don't know.

A case in point:
DH's male co-resident (A) and I got into a discussion about "asking to do stuff in the OR" (generally, in the OR when you're a student or in training, the surgeons don't let you do stuff until you ask). And I wondered aloud if that was harmful to women or minorities since they are more likely to wait until a higher level of competence before asking to do something than a white male (this is born out by many studies in business, for example). We discussed for a long time various scenarios where specifically women were harmed by certain attitudes in surgery about their competence, etc. He has a daughter who is 9 months old and I was like, "A, what if some day, it was assumed that she wasn't as competent a surgeon because she was a woman? Or didn't ask, etc" and you could see him pause. And he's like, "well that's just the way the world is, and I will have to teach her that" and I said, "Yes, you teach her how the world is AND you fight to make it more fair". You could see his wheels turning. Anyway, I'm leaving a LOT of this story out...but the point is that A would NEVER have had this conversation with someone else. He's a wonderful person but he doesn't come into contact with a lot of women who would have this conversation with him. This is the type of conversation that can only happen if you have a strong relationship with someone and tons of mutual respect. If some generic person had called him out on his subtle sexism, he would have totally chafed. But our families know and love each other, have complete respect for each other. So he was WAY more open to hearing it from me.

Last weekend I had a similar conversation about affirmative action with another couple that we're getting to know here. The husband expressed an opinion against affirmative action that he NEVER would have expressed in front of a person of color. And because we have mutual respect, he listened to me.

Again, I don't want to paint myself as an angel here...I still have tons to learn and I"m sure I'm guilty of about 3000 errors a day (the log in my own eye for our Bible readers out there...) but I'm saying that I'm learning that I can and should be having these conversations in the community that I'm in. That my relationships allow conversations that NEVER would happen by a stranger talking to people. People are way more comfortable having these discussions among "their own". That's not to say we should crowd out any other voices...just that a lot of times, you're not going to bring an end to subtle racism or sexism by some powerful speech by someone that people don't identify with. It's in community that minds are changed...

Does that make sense?

[rufflesanddots]

Yes, it does. Having these conversations in our own families and communities is important.

This reminds me of Fields' mom saying she didn't talk to him about his "political stuff". What if she had?

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[medpedspouse]

ITA about having those type of conversations - especially with those you already have a relationship with...I am just not convinced FB is the best place to do it. You say something, friend responds appropriately, next thing friend of a friend that does not know you misinterprets your intent and the conversation is no longer productive.

Face to Face, however, I say go for it. "Hard" conversations don't have to necessarily be a negative thing.

ETA: I think sometimes us looking for the shared common ground is what helps those looking for "their own" hear a different message/perspective.

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

Got it. I interpreted your "don't talk about politics/religion" to be more of a blanket statement vs. only on social media. Your description makes sense.

[MrsK]

So I used to (until very recently) feel this same way. I really, really did not want to discuss politics or religion at all.

But then I realized how many people that I know and associate with hold beliefs about people different from them simply because they haven't heard another side. I don't want anyone to think I'm "perfect" or "fighting a good fight" here...I'm FAR from perfect. But I've realized that from my position, there are people that I can get to listen to me that NEVER would engage in a discussion about race or gender with someone they don't know.

A case in point:
DH's male co-resident (A) and I got into a discussion about "asking to do stuff in the OR" (generally, in the OR when you're a student or in training, the surgeons don't let you do stuff until you ask). And I wondered aloud if that was harmful to women or minorities since they are more likely to wait until a higher level of competence before asking to do something than a white male (this is born out by many studies in business, for example). We discussed for a long time various scenarios where specifically women were harmed by certain attitudes in surgery about their competence, etc. He has a daughter who is 9 months old and I was like, "A, what if some day, it was assumed that she wasn't as competent a surgeon because she was a woman? Or didn't ask, etc" and you could see him pause. And he's like, "well that's just the way the world is, and I will have to teach her that" and I said, "Yes, you teach her how the world is AND you fight to make it more fair". You could see his wheels turning. Anyway, I'm leaving a LOT of this story out...but the point is that A would NEVER have had this conversation with someone else. He's a wonderful person but he doesn't come into contact with a lot of women who would have this conversation with him. This is the type of conversation that can only happen if you have a strong relationship with someone and tons of mutual respect. If some generic person had called him out on his subtle sexism, he would have totally chafed. But our families know and love each other, have complete respect for each other. So he was WAY more open to hearing it from me.

Last weekend I had a similar conversation about affirmative action with another couple that we're getting to know here. The husband expressed an opinion against affirmative action that he NEVER would have expressed in front of a person of color. And because we have mutual respect, he listened to me.

Again, I don't want to paint myself as an angel here...I still have tons to learn and I"m sure I'm guilty of about 3000 errors a day (the log in my own eye for our Bible readers out there...) but I'm saying that I'm learning that I can and should be having these conversations in the community that I'm in. That my relationships allow conversations that NEVER would happen by a stranger talking to people. People are way more comfortable having these discussions among "their own". That's not to say we should crowd out any other voices...just that a lot of times, you're not going to bring an end to subtle racism or sexism by some powerful speech by someone that people don't identify with. It's in community that minds are changed...

Does that make sense?

I think it depends on your friend mix, your own ethnicity, etc. You are in a position of privilege. I appreciate you advocating for people who don't have that advantage. You have influence over people who possibly have never met the "other."

It's like the social media bubbles we have previously discussed. You have the ability to puncture a bubble that my bubble (mostly liberal Jewish people and other minority people) rarely touches. I posted during the election and post about experiences that are unique to my community from time to time because I've been surprised from time to time when I meet someone who has never heard such ideas. It is surprising in my social circle that someone has never heard of the JCC, for instance.

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[medpedspouse]

This is why I am a big advocate for not living within one bubble. A friend recently looked at me like I had two heads when I told her why I felt I did not fit in in our last town. It was not for lack of like minded people, it was because I did not feel comfortable living in a place where the majority had similar religious, political, life experience beliefs. I needed for friends to say "have you considered (insert the opposite of whatever I thought was my reality)" instead of agreeing with most of my thoughts.

This is one of the many reasons why I heart IMSN. We really should consider that commune.

[TulipsAndSunscreen]

I particularly enjoy it when I can burst my liberal college friends bubbles about the "idiot evangelicals" by pointing out that I'm one. 🤣

You'd be surprised what people say when they think they're in completely like minded company. (Or rather, you might be displeased... unlikely surprised). And I've had it in BOTH "liberal" and "conservative" directions.


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[SoonerTexan]

I think when someone regularly uses Facebook to share their political beliefs and constantly says that they love all people, and then is silent after this event, it is a problem. I do not know if it is approval, embarrassment, shame, guilt, fear, or confusion driving the silence, but it is noticeable and painful (to me, anyway). Why the hesitation now? Why not even a "praying for Charlottesville"? Why have my friends who will send me a "Happy New Year!" message on Rosh Hashanah and emphatically tell me they do not endorse the increased alt-right rhetoric that came with this election cycle/administration (that they voted for) chosen to remain silent? They have not even messaged me privately to denounce this hatred.

I don't know anyway to not make this sound bitchy, but why do they owe it to you explain themselves or apologize in any sort of way unless you are a true victim of the event?

Honestly, that is part of why I don't like to post about a lot of this stuff or change my profile picture, etc. In some situations where it hits really close to home, sure. But in many, it just feels like it is making it about me when I have very little connection to an event. I don't think that is the motive of any and everyone posting, but in some cases it really feels like an attention grab. Or in this case a subtle superiority. "What has our country come to? Thank God I'm not part of the problem."

[rufflesanddots]

I offered up the suggestion of them reaching out privately as an alternative to making a public statement (because these people are already politically engaged and paying attention to current events). I'm sorry that wasn't clear above.

However, I don't think it's a large leap for family and friends to acknowledge/denounce an event or group or thought system that is harmful to their loved ones and against values that they hold. To me that can be done without an apology or explanation. I agree it seems like it should be obvious, but after this weekend it seems like a lot of people were surprised to see friends, family, and coworkers out there. :/




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