What's good for children?

I'll start off by saying that I'm not yet a parent (We're working on it, but it's too early to tell so far.) and therefore my comments come only from theory and observation, not from experience. With that in mind...

Yesterday afternoon my husband and I went to a matinee and saw "Spiderman 2". For anyone who hasn't seen it, it's pretty adult, the villian's costume is pretty scary, and it has lots of screaming people, and lines like "Or I'll peel the flesh from her bones", but not a lot of blood and gore or bad language, which I guess keeps it in the PG-13 rating realm. My husband and I thought it was great. What I didn't think was so great was the presence of over 50 little children under age 6. Two little girls in front of us had been dropped off by their mother, who reappeared to sit with them 5 minutes from the end of the film, I presume when her own movie was over, and behind me sat a 3 1/2 year old boy, there with his parents who are work colleagues of my husband. Throughout the movie I heard him ask his father to explain things to him: "Why are they doing that to him, dad?" Before the movie started we were chatting with him and his parents and I learned that he'd been given the choice of what to see (it was that or Shrek 2 or Harry Potter 3). I also learned that he pretty much sees everything that comes out, as his mother pops a movie into his bedroom VCR to get him to sleep at night.

I don't know what to think about all of this. I was a very imaginative, dramatic child, and I remember having nightmares for a month about the blueberry girl in Willy Wonka. My parents strictly limited TV time for my brother and me, VCR's and videos hadn't been invented yet, and the closest thing I ever got to a grownup movie as a child was something "James Bond" at the drive-in, and I slept through most of it on the backseat of the car. (Which would NEVER happen now--the sleeping in the backseat part, that is.) Lots of people have told me that things are different now, and kids are more sophisticated, but are they really? If acceptable now means we strap them safely into their carseats and take them to see 'Spiderman 2', then maybe I should abandon all hope of having children, because I'm now wondering about damaging them by forcing my 'different' views on them.

Here's where I stand: I'm inclined to agree with the American Academy of Pediatrics that children should be kept completely away from screens until the age of 2. There will be no televisions or VCRs in my children's rooms until they're teenagers, and I plan to strictly monitor what they see, read, play, surf as long as I possibly can, especially with regard to violence. I want to encourage reading and imaginative play and hands on learning about the world.

Am I fighting a losing battle? If, to quote an acquaintance, having children means "you'll give anything for time to yourself and for them to just shut up and leave you alone." am I wrong for wondering why the person who said that had children in the first place?

How do you define what's 'good' for children--yours or anyone else's?

[Flynn]

I think it's really a good idea to think all this through before kids. You can always change your minds but some of our friends just go with what they think will be good for the moment and they don't see that they are solving one problem with another.

I think that kids at Spiderman 2 is silly and stupid. It's one thing to rent the movie at home, preview it before your kid watches it and MAYBE let them see age-appropriate scenes while skipping the other stuff. That might be ok in my eyes -- I haven't seen the movie -- but what you described is not ok in my opinion on so many levels!

From my perspective, no screens until they are 2 is a bit extreme -- but that's just my opinion. My daughter is 21 months and we watch Baby Einstein's probably twice a week, play some Elmo computer games together, and see a bit of Sesame Street. It's all supervised and we have a blast making the animal noises on the TV together. I have danced with Big Bird, pretended to eat imaginary cookies with Cookie Monster, and Counted with The Count! We have had a ball!

I would caution that TVs and VCRs and even phones in a teenager's room, in my opinion, is a slippery slope. I used to teach this age and the stories they would tell me about how clueless their parents were because they had everything they needed in their room so they never saw their parents....scary!!!! I'm not sure about a computer...but my kids won't have TVs, phones or video games in their rooms (hopefully we won't own video games but we'll see what happens). It's too easy to lie about what they are doing and stay up much too late. Teenagers need as much sleep as a small child due to puberty and less than half actually get it!

You define what's good for your children and within your household -- within reason of course and that's where it gets tricky. It's easier to loosen the reins a bit than to tighten them though if you feel you've been too lenient.

I think being cautious in the beginning with limited to no TV, tons of books, lots of activities, and many people to interact with is a good start to any parenting stint!

Good Luck!

[mommax3]

What a thoughtful post. I have been thinking a lot about movies lately in regards to our kids, so I will respond with what I have been able to come up with so far......

What's good for children......the short answer I would give is "love and limits"......but for specifics it really depends on the kid. As far as tv/videos go, though, here is what we do. I felt quite strongly (as you seem to) that my kids would have very little to do with tv when they were toddlers and preschoolers. I didn't even consider that they would notice the tv when they were babies. When I babysat (and I did a LOT of that as a teenager and a college student) I didn't let the kids watch much tv and we all had a great time. Fast forward to our first child, who was/is extremely active and curious. I never imagined I would have a child like him.....and thought that other parents who had children like him just didn't understand how to discipline a child. I now know that life will catch up with you when you think things like that. What it came down to......I bought him a video of kids singing songs at a bookstore when he was 9 months old (he had been crawling at break-neck speed since he was 5 months old) and it was the first time I ever saw him sit still for more than a minute or two. Seriously. That video became my means to taking a shower......and I knew if I wasn't doing my final rinse when I heard the intro to the last song, I needed to be. From that point on, I used 30 minute videos (sesame street, disney sing-alongs, other kid-type programs) when I absolutely couldn't give Luke my full attention. He didn't watch actual tv at all. When we moved to San Antonio and I was pregnant (and really sick!) for the second time with a two-year-old Luke (and a husband who was working 100 hours a week) the videos started to have a little heavier rotation, especially when he gave up his nap. Still, he watched less than 2 hours a day and never more than two 30 minute videos in a row. All that changed when he discovered Star Wars. By this time, he had mastered both the vcr controls and the remote control, and was fond of taking all of our videos out of their cases and shoving them into the vcr, which led to us putting a lock on our entertainment center (and I'm sure led many a babysitter to wonder just what kind of videos we kept in there!). One day, he chose Star Wars. I thought, "oh yeah right, he will never watch that", but once he heard that the main character's name was Luke, he was hooked. I watched it with him and he never batted an eye at the violent scenes, which are pretty tame, especially compared to today's movies, but I was having a crisis because "Star Wars" was the first PG movie I ever saw, at the age of 10, and I was freaking out that my two-year-old was watching it and wondering where my standards had gone.

Well, now Luke is nine. He has seen all the Star Wars movies, both Shreks, (the innuendos still go over his head) Pirates of the Caribbean, and most of the G rated things that have come out since he was born, either on video or in theatres. He is the kind of kid who will react to scary things with night terrors, so I have been pretty vigilant about what he sees......"Pirates" was a no-no until I saw it a couple of times, and we watched it at home so we could stop it if he got scared. He has been pretty sheltered, (basically no network tv except the occasional SpongeBob, other than that it is PBS, Animal Planet, and various videos that we have or that we rent) but over the past year, I have gotten the feeling that it is starting to impact him socially a little......most of the kids he goes to school with saw Spiderman when it came out, have seen all of the Lord of the Rings movies, Harry Potter, etc., and they just finished 3rd grade (at a private christian school that you would think had more sheltered kids). Dh and I are trying to decide if we should let him see Spiderman and the sequel.....I am leaning towards yes, and maybe the Lord of the Rings movies as well. I feel like the social crap that he deals with at school can have just as much effect on him emotionally as would a movie that is too violent. We are trying to adjust our perception of what he can handle as he grows.....something that is not as easy as it seems it might be.....and we are trying to say yes as much as possible, knowing full well that there are times when we will absolutely say NO. I still swear that my kids will not have a tv or a computer with internet access in their bedrooms before they go to college.

9 years into this parenting thing and I am learning that you really have to deal with the child you have and forget about what everyone else says/does/thinks.

want to encourage reading and imaginative play and hands on learning about the world.

I think that sounds excellent and part of the description of the ideal parent, in my opinion. Just know that some kids come out in such a way that they don't want to play that way......my oldest, for example. I have never seen him pretend with toys, and I used to try and try to get him to make up little scenarios with his Fisher-Price Little People. He is very reality-based and wants to know (endlessly!) WHY. He read quite well beginning when he was four, with little input from me, but until this year he only would read factual things, (biographies, almanacs, science books, etc.) but never stories. My second son has been much less demanding in all ways, never cared about videos until he was about four, and pretended a lot as a little guy. My third son is more like the oldest, but loves to play with blocks and build marble towers, too.

Am I fighting a losing battle? If, to quote an acquaintance, having children means "you'll give anything for time to yourself and for them to just shut up and leave you alone." am I wrong for wondering why the person who said that had children in the first place?

You aren't fighting a losing battle.....the best parent is a thinking parent and that is exactly what you are doing. What your acquaintance said is not the "essence" of parenthood, at least to me, but there are definitely moments when you would give a year of your life to read the front page of the paper, have a short phone conversation, take a shower, or go to the bathroom without a little person either interrupting you or wreaking havoc somewhere in the house while you are occupied. And that is why I think videos/tv have their place. The moms I have known that have been able to stick to a no tv/video rule have by and large been moms that have much less active children than mine who take LONG naps well past their third birthday OR they are moms whose activity level is the same as their kids, and can match them, activity for activity,and that is great for them. Kids love repetition......I don't. Kids love messes. I don't. My sons could run all day. I can't. They don't need to do laundry, plan meals, and make shopping lists. I do. I enjoy reading and being able to concentrate on said reading......they have very little respect for that! SO, in our family, we have learned to co-exist with love and with limits, meaning sometimes (lots of times!) I don't get to do what I want to do, and other times, they don't. They are happy and doing well (and hopefully not building up too much resentment!) and I haven't regretted bringing them into the world for a second.

So, don't throw in the towel. The way you define what is okay for your child is by going with your gut and getting to know your child......over and over again as they grow. Defining what is okay for other kids......well, the longer I am a parent, the more I try to stay off that subject because I have a hard enough time figuring out what is okay for my own. I have total peace with saying to myself "that's not what I would do" and letting it go.

Sally

[PrincessFiona]

My kids loved spiderman 2

When I was pregnant with Andrew (my oldest) my husband and I were on a train in Germany heading back from a carnival. Sitting near us was a couple with a two year old who had obviously eaten his weight in candy (it was smeared all over his face!). He was sleeping in his buggy and looked like he'd been there all day.

I leaned in to my husband and said "I would never take my child...." (well, you can fill in the blanks there on my sentence). Much to my embarassment, the parents heard my comments. Noticing my burgeoning belly the father just said "I used to feel the same way...some day you'll understand". I was mortified...I think I apologized 10 times...but he just kept saying "It's ok...no, really...we've been there".

Fast forward 10 years...wow...ten years.....my kids have all seen harry potter shrek I and II and spiderman I and II....(I remember when I swore that my kids would only be allowed to see movies like 'Garfield' (snooze) or watch Sesame Street...

We went to Spiderman 2 on opening day specifically for my 5 1/2 year old who loves Spiderman.....as a matter of fact, Alex lived in a spiderman costume for 1/2 of prechool...believing that he too had magical powers to save people from harm just like spiderman. In the spirit of spiderman, my little man also is the first on the scene to help if a friend gets hurt....and thinks that someday he is going to be a superhero to 'save the world'. I don't think those are necessarily bad values.

That being said...I would never leave my child unattended in the movie...nor do I pop on any old thing to just 'get some time for myself'. My kids don't have computers or tvs or phones in their rooms and never will. We do pick and choose what we allow the kids to see...though our values may not be the same as yours....which is ok. Another compounding factor is that movie makers just don't make good appropriate movies anymore for kids....even Garfield (which was the snooze loser of the summer) was not a good kid's show...imo. You basically have to keep the tv permanently turned off and not go to the movies with your kids in todays day and age...even the cartoons have swearing in them.

My kids are all pretty well-behaved most of the time, have good manners, don't hurt each other intentionally (usually ), know the difference between right and wrong, and I wouldn't expose them to anything that I thought would be harmful to them.

I grew up like you did....I remember getting in huge trouble for watching flashdance at a slumber party when I was in the 9th grade...my mom called the other parent and complained bitterly. I am also very sensitive to movie violence.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with you having children and setting limits and saying no...it is your perfect right as the parent.


In any case...I guess I'm just the silly, stupid mom But I'll own it..

kris

[PrincessFiona]

My kids don't have computers or tvs or phones in their rooms and never will.

Any more experienced moms out there having a good laugh at my expense?

Thanks for all the advice. You've given me a lot to think about.

I would caution that TVs and VCRs and even phones in a teenager's room, in my opinion, is a slippery slope. I used to teach this age and the stories they would tell me about how clueless their parents were because they had everything they needed in their room so they never saw their parents....scary!!!!

I thought about this point several years ago, when it came out that Eric Harris (one of the Columbine shooters) was building an arsenal of pipe bombs in his bedroom with his friend Dylan, and some of them were right out in the open, but his clueless parents had no idea. Yikes! I think I was approaching this from the standpoint that my mother's curse "I hope one day you have a child just like you!" will probably come true. Considering my teenage behavior... 8O

I think what I have the hardest time coming to grips with is that I was raised by a mentally-ill mother who occasionally did some scary and awful things, but I'm finding that some of the other things she did (that weren't scary and awful) actually worked and I'd like to try them too. Maybe I'm just overanalyzing things. I'm doing okay with the dogs so far!

I never imagined I would have a child like him.....and thought that other parents who had children like him just didn't understand how to discipline a child. I now know that life will catch up with you when you think things like that.

So, so true. I like to think it's God's sense of humor.

[houseelf]

I have really enjoyed reading this thread...very polite discussion and this topic is sooooo hard because there is so much gray out there.

We went to see "Black Hawk Down" on a rare datenight a few years ago and were absolutely horrified to see very young children in the audience. It is a fantastic movie but has graphic and violent footage. (I vividly remember a young boy crying during the scene where a Marine picks up the severed hand of a fallen comrade. I will cast very few stones as far as parenting choices, but this one really astonished me.

The problem with this is that even when you think that you are making solid choices, i.e. as a family we have watched "The Amazing Race" and "American Idol", the movie trailer commercials show graphic violence which mesmerize my son.

Also, kids are exposed to things through school and other kids. I don't allow my son to watch the Ninja Turtles, Yugioh, or Power Rangers and yet he begs me for clothes or costumes emblazoned with these characters. He sees the commercials on Saturday morning cartoons and one of his friends has these character toys.

On the other hand, he has seen both Star Wars and Harry Potter, which is probably a little too mature for a four year old, if I'm completely honest. My husband thwarted my vote on this both times, stating that he was raised watching both STar Trek and Westerns at an early age. Although both genres are cheesy, there are occasional themes of morality and humanity rather than just gratuitous violence.

In the end, I have a much bigger problem with the gratuitous, over-the-top violence rather than foul language or sexuality. But this topic is hard. All you have to do is turn on Saturday morning cartoons. It is all crap. I'm not talking Scooby Doo mindless crap, I'm talking sass-mouth, violent, mass marketing to young children crap. It is really hard as a parent to constantly battle all of these outside forces. Not that this gives us permission to just throw up our hands in defeat, but we constantly have to weave through a very grey line of what is acceptable and what is not.

Kelly

[Auspicious]

We went to see "Black Hawk Down" on a rare datenight a few years ago and were absolutely horrified to see very young children in the audience. It is a fantastic movie but has graphic and violent footage. (I vividly remember a young boy crying during the scene where a Marine picks up the severed hand of a fallen comrade. I will cast very few stones as far as parenting choices, but this one really astonished me.

Oh! That scene in BHD where they're trying to sew the guy's femoral artery or whatever back together STILL makes me queasy whenever I think about it. 8O

On a related note, a couple weeks ago we went to see an evening showing of Farenheit 9/11 and midway through there was a mother dashing for the door carrying her small vomiting child in her arms. That movie definitley has an R rating for a reason, including graphic wartime footage of injuries, corpses, and an execution. FH and I were pretty horrified (by the footage AND the parenting choices).

That having been said though, I think we would likely fall more toward the permissive end of the spectrum of philosophies expressed here.

[Phoebe]

I find this an interesting topic and one that I struggle with on a daily basis. I feel my daughter watches too much TV and I tend to restrict what she watches and how much. My ideas of what our children would be able to watch have laxed since actually having children. There was a study recently in the Journal of Peds about the correlation between TV viewing and higher incidence of ADHD. There are times when I am at wits end and the TV becomes an electronic babysitter for a few minutes.

Like today, I was trying to feed the baby lunch and had gotten out some kid-size scissors and a marker to let Avery practice cutting. The phone rang and while I was tending to the baby's lunch and talking, so used the red marker as lipstick all over her face. Next, she opened my box of tampons and started pulling them out when I was trying to clean up the baby. I suggested a couple of activities she could do, but she refused. I was so tempted to pop in a movie to distract her. She was driving me nuts.

She loves movies, especially Disney. Her dad thrawts my restrictions on TV when I am not around so we have lots of inconsistencies in what she is allowed to watch and how often. My wonderful MIL gave her 5 DVDs last time we visited so it doesn't help my cause. We have lots of discussions about this issue in our house about trying to stay on the same page in TV privledges.

My three year old niece has a TV/VCR in her bedroom to help her sleep. I don't agree with that at all. We haven't taken our daughter to a movie theatre yet because she wouldn't sit through it. My DH is a TV junkie and our daughter will follow suit if I let her. So I while I talk the talk, I don't walk the walk.

[SueC]

Dare I admit that my kids have a TV, VCR and DVD in their bedroom?
I have always been opposed to that also, and am a little embarassed by it, but my dh and I did it for purely selfish reasons! We have a small house that has one common living area where our main TV is. The girls share a bedroom and there is no play room or family room where we can stash another TV and the girls' toys. We like to watch grown up TV sometimes without the banter of little children in the background so we put a TV that was given to us in their room. That said I can honestly say that most days the TV in their room doesn't go on at all. They generally play in there without the distraction of the TV. I probably put a movie on for them a couple of times a week. Now I won't lie and say my kids don't watch cartoons. In the morning they crawl into my bed and I put on Nickelodeon and try to steal a few more minutes of sleep. In the afternoon, I work at my computer and they frequently watch cartoons in my room which is directly adjacent to my office.
As far as kids watching violent or scary movies--my kids don't watch them. My 4 year old was a little afraid of Swiper (from Dora the Explorer--the most benign villain on the planet) so I'm not about to terrify the poor thing with Spiderman. If she weren't such a sensitive child I can't say whether or not I'd let her watch that at 4. I'd like to think not but I have to say I use to have all of these ideals of myself as a parent and I am finding that I'm not as perfect as I thought I would be.

[houseelf]

Jennifer,

Like today, I was trying to feed the baby lunch and had gotten out some kid-size scissors and a marker to let Avery practice cutting. The phone rang and while I was tending to the baby's lunch and talking, so used the red marker as lipstick all over her face. Next, she opened my box of tampons and started pulling them out when I was trying to clean up the baby. I suggested a couple of activities she could do, but she refused. I was so tempted to pop in a movie to distract her. She was driving me nuts.

Oh man, what a day. How can a child bring so much joy and frustration in a single instance? I'm so glad to hear that I'm not alone with these types of escapades. Here is hoping for a calmer, less chaotic day for you.

Kelly

[PrincessFiona]

I think what I have the hardest time coming to grips with is that I was raised by a mentally-ill mother who occasionally did some scary and awful things, but I'm finding that some of the other things she did (that weren't scary and awful) actually worked and I'd like to try them too. Maybe I'm just overanalyzing things. I'm doing okay with the dogs so far!

Ahava,

I meant to respond to this earlier but I got side-tracked. I think one of the hardest things for us as parents (my husband and I) is figuring out how to parent without repeating the same mistakes our own parents made. We initially tended to go overboard in the exact opposite direction (also not a good idea) and I have at times seen a side of myself when I get angry that reminds me all too much of some unpleasant memories of my own.

Parenting is one of the most challenging things I've ever done and that is one of the reasons why...it forces you to deal with those 'family of origin' issues whether you are ready for it or not.

If you ever want to talk about specific concerns/fears/thoughts....we're here for you.

kris

[Phoebe]

Sue- I guess a better way to say that my cousin has a TV in her 3 yr old's bedroom is that that goes to sleep with it every night and stays up late watching TV. Having a TV in the room isn't the issue. I think it was how and why my cousin uses the TV that I didn't agree with. Sorry. We have a TV in our bedroom and one in our living room. Avery pretty much hogs that one when she can.

Jennifer

[SueC]

Don't apologize Jennifer, I promise I didn't take offense. I agree, that it depends on how often the TV is used. I know people who rely on videos every night to put their kids to bed and I think that is a really bad habit to get into. Our girls mainly have on in their room due to our lack of space.